Member Discussions

Is there a file or tutorial someone would point me toward that that explains the differences between LPmud and Smaug?(or Circle, Rom, etc)

(I've never played anything LPmud-based so I am kind of lost as to what it does and does not do - is combat possible?)

Also, (anyone with some spare time) if you were coding a mud why would you pick LPmud over other codebases? Or why would you not pick it? (if the latter, what base would you choose and why?)

Thanks,

Kitkat - goes to look at CoffeeMud 'cause, hello, coffee -

LPMuds offer a different method of coding and possibly building than Diku Derivatives. Instead of recompiling source code into a binary and running that (this is the Diku model) you edit files called .c files (even though they aren't really C language files) and these are interpreted (which means they are run on the fly and not compiled into binary) to make the mud. Either system can offer the same amount of expression. The tradeoff comes with programmer effectiveness. LPMuds offer greater programmer effectiveness for lots of tasks, but can run slower and may require more understanding of higher programming language concepts. Diku MUDs will run more quickly but may have reduced programmer effectiveness especially in areas of string manipulation and building new data types (LP is better at this)

In short both have combat or can. I would check out DeadSouls if you are interseted in LP.

http://dead-souls.sourceforge.net/

Heya Ockham,

Thanks. I will give it a look.

Normally I would just go with Smaug since I like building in it, but there are definite changes that have to be made (like levels on objects) for it to work the way I need and since will be doing the coding myself I may something easier to work with.

Kitkat - yes, yes I am learning to code...but since the ninth circle is always frozen it is not as big a deal as it sounds -

For some examples of how building works on an LP mud, check out this thread at MudLab. The division between coding and building is not as clear cut as it is in Diku. Building comes with a fair bit of scripting and requires knowledge at least of programming logic, most coding such as modifying game systems is done in the same scripting language.

If you have the free time, your welcome to download a copy of Realm of the Magi's Builder's handbook (in PDF format) to get a general idea of how to code in LPC. Its got a number of examples as well as the do's and don'ts of coding under LPC.

-- M

Heya Angie,

What are 'dynamic' descriptions? (I am assuming dynamic is used as a noun, not as an adjective.)

I looked over the examples and while I think I can handle the 'scripting' I am not sure I can actually build. Maybe it is a mental block or just years of Circle/Smaug but I need to be in the room I am building.

(I know, I know...there is not actually a 'room' but I construct a mental one and work from there. I have tried offline builders and I seem to have a block on using them as well.)

thanks, - Kitkat

Oh cool, thanks!

(Comment added by Kitkat on Thu Mar 29 15:34:57 2007)

er..edited to specify thanks to rotm_adm ;)

Dynamic descriptions, as opposed to static, change depending on circumstances, viewer or actions. Has the player opened a window? It shouldn't still show as closed in the room description. Has the dragon Tiamat been slain? Remove him from the desc until next repop. Should the forest look the same whether it's raining or sunshine? Preferably not.

Normally I would just go with Smaug since I like building in it, but there are definite changes that have to be made (like levels on objects) for it to work the way I need and since will be doing the coding myself I may something easier to work with.

Just curious as to what it is you like about Smaug's OLC that you like. I haven't used it since 1998 and didn't much like it then. Since then I have used other codebases OLC and in retrospect I now couldn't be paid to use smaug's OLC. What I'm seeking to do though is not bash you for liking smaug, or anyone else. I'm simply wondering what it is about the OLC system that appeals to so many people.

Ahhh..okay. I have done some of those in the past, although probably the hard way by using extra descriptions on objects and mobs, room progs and by altering the core description of the room.

(I am a sucker for mobs that change behavior based on how many times they encounter you. Like bartenders or shopkeepers that know you after you visit their shops, or remember your favorite drink after a few times in.)

Kitkat -

Just so you will find it easier to compare, my OLC of choice is OasisOLC 2.0.6 preferably with DG Scripts 1.0.14. ie. CircleMUD.

"Just curious as to what it is you like about Smaug's OLC that you like."

*scrunches her nose and thinks very, very hard*

Smaug has an OLC? (grin)

I like the flags, how easy it is to make and set anything special I need, the doors are so easy to modify, easy to make into other things,

(whichever OLC it is that makes you create doors and set paramiters in a particular order or they won't open and close, Rom maybe? is like...my Waterloo...)

I don't know..I like using numbers to set things...mainly I like how easy it is for builders to do many things that require a coder in other bases. And I love the mob, obj and room progs. Building in Smaug just seems easier.

I am not sure which OLC Oasis is. I may have used it or maybe not.

What do you prefer to build in?

Kitkat -

(Comment added by Kitkat on Thu Mar 29 16:49:23 2007)

Oh, never mind. You already said your favorite. I'll just be going now...maybe food will help. ;)

"Is there a file or tutorial someone would point me toward that that explains the differences between LPmud and Smaug?(or Circle, Rom, etc) "

I'm not that familiar with Diku derivatives, so I
can only give you a general idea of the differences
as I understand them.

The simplest comparison is:

Diku derivatives are games that run from compiled
code. LP muds have a binary program that is executable,
compiled code, but the game world is not part of that
compiled code. The game world is composed of files
interpreted by the program, or "driver", on the fly.
The files are in a scripting/programming format
called LPC. A discussion of the ramifications of
this is at http://lpmuds.net/lp_versus_diku.html

"(I've never played anything LPmud-based so I am kind of lost as to what it does and does not do - is combat possible?"

LPmuds can do anything you want.

There is some sort of perception that LPmuds are
somehow not combat oriented. You're not the first
person to ask if you can do combat in LP. In my
mind this is a very, very strange question, because
LPmuds have historically been all about combat
and fighting orcs and questing and whatnot. Sure, some
muds using LPC have been mostly social, but that
is most decidedly not the preponderant tradition.
LP tradition is gaming, with RP aspects being
normal and possible, but not normally the focus.

Having said that, it's trivially easy to set up an LP
mud that's mostly RP and little combat since, as
I said, LPmuds can do anything you want.

I think that the reason people have got the idea that
LP isn't combat oriented is that LP muds might get
lumped in with MOOs and MUSHes, types of muds that
often use an interpreted scripting/programming language
as well. This is fair in that MOOs and MUSHes provide
environments that allow some classes of players to
modify the game on the fly using a local language.
It's unfair though, in that MOOs and MUSHes typically
do not focus on combat, and LP muds typically do.

"if you were coding a mud why would you pick LPmud over other codebases?"

Some reasons you'd go with LP:

*) You already know LPC and are used to LPmuds.

*) You want to make a very customized mud, but do not
want to invest years in learning enough C to do it.


"Or why would you not pick it?"

Some reasons you'd avoid LP:

*) You are proficient with C and like Diku derivatives.

*) You want to run a commercial mud.

*) LPC is way simpler than C, but still involves some
effort to learn. For some, that's a turnoff.


"if the latter, what base would you choose and why?"

Depends on your plans. If you're planning on being
a C coder at some point, then you might as well
go with a Diku derivative. Otherwise, I'd strongly
recommend Coffeemud, which is a fine, fine codebase
that more people should give a day in court.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

PS Shameless plug:
I'm the maintainer of Dead Souls and recommend it
for new mud admins. It's powerful enough for LP heroes,
but also specifically geared to be easy to pick up
for newbs. You can pick up Dead Souls here: http://dead-souls.net/ (the version on Sourceforge
is old and not recommended).

There are other LP mudlibs available as well. You
have your pick of relatively easy ones to install
here: http://lpmuds.net/downloads.html

I am not sure which OLC Oasis is. I may have used it or maybe not.

Oasis look like this...

-- Mob Number:  [57700]
1) Sex: neutral          2) Keywords: guard merchant
3) S-Desc: Fizban's personal Guard/Merchant
4) L-Desc:-
Fizban's personal guard is here selling his wares.
5) D-Desc:-
   Fizban's personal guard/merchant is watching you to make sure you don't steal
from him, and he also has his sword pulled out in case you are dumb enough to
try. He looks extremely powerful, and as if he has taken many small injuries
from his battles over the years.
6) Level:       [  34],  7) Alignment:    [1000]
8) Hitroll:     [  50],  9) Damroll:      [  50]
A) NumDamDice:  [  30],  B) SizeDamDice:  [ 127]
C) Num HP Dice: [  30],  D) Size HP Dice: [1000],  E) HP Bonus: [  340]
F) Armor Class: [-200],  G) Exp:     [   115600],  H) Gold:  [     340]
I) Position  : Standing
J) Default   : Standing
K) Attack    : hit
L) NPC Flags : SENTINEL ISNPC 
M) AFF Flags : NOBITS 
S) Script    : Set.
X) Delete mob
Q) Quit


-- Room number : [57700]        Room zone: [577]
1) Name        : Fizban's Zone Description Room
2) Description :
   Fizban is a rather peculiar old man who enjoys filling his zone with strange
triggers, if you were to walk through this zone and explore it thoroughly with
nohassle off you would likely regret it. A sign is seen to the right.
3) Room flags  : NOBITS 
4) Sector type : Inside
5) Exit north  : -1
6) Exit east   : -1
7) Exit south  : 57701
8) Exit west   : -1
9) Exit up     : -1
A) Exit down   : -1
B) Extra descriptions menu
S) Script      : Set.
X) Delete Room
Q) Quit


-- Item number : [57700]
1) Keywords : Sword of Death
2) S-Desc   : the Sword of Death
3) L-Desc   :-
The Sword of Death lies here.
4) A-Desc   :-
<not set>
5) Type        : WEAPON
6) Extra flags : NOBITS 
7) Wear flags  : TAKE WIELD 
8) Weight      : 3
9) Cost        : 1000
A) Cost/Day    : 0
B) Timer       : 0
C) Values      : 15 15 7 3
D) Applies menu
E) Extra descriptions menu
M) Min Level   : 0
P) Perm Affects: NOBITS 
S) Script      : Set.
X) Delete object
Q) Quit

That's one mob, one object and one room just to show the basic look and feel of OasisOLC 2.0.6.

For comparison, the Dead Souls OLC looks like this:


http://dead-souls.net/example.html


There's also an in-game editor to edit game
files, called ed, which is rather ugly and
inconvenient, but with which you can do
jut about anything.

-Crat

Ed..hmm never used LPC really, but i'm going to assume that's the same ed I'm thinking of. LPC MUDs really use a form of the original UNIX text editor?

It functions in roughly the same way.

It's no "vi", but it's been the editing workhorse
in LP muds for years.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/

Eh, I'm odd anyway, always used pico over vim or joe.

Crat said:

It's unfair though, in that MOOs and MUSHes typically
do not focus on combat, and LP muds typically do.

This was somewhat true a decade ago but now many, if not most, MUSHes have more stats, skills and weapons than any DIKU Dev ever dreamed of. This is because they implement the rules of Shadowrun, Worlds of Darkness, and similar table top games with almost line for line faithfullness.

It also means they're all permadeath.

They also often have complex dynamic descriptions on both rooms and players. And the space games have 3D coordinate space to fly around in.

The one thing they don't have is mobiles. :)

For those that are skilled at LPC, I do have a copy of a 'vi' that was developed for LPMuds (MudOS driver environments to be exact). The only problem is that several parts of it are written in chinese ;)

-- M

Wow...that was comprehensive. ;)

I am thinking about going with LPmud (or something in Java) because of the scripting. The only 'C' I know is the musical note but I have been doing some scripts and my husband says Java is pretty easy.

Your Dead Souls runs on Unix or Windows, right? (I want something I can toss on my machine for a couple of weeks and play with, but ultimately I would rather run it on someone else's server instead of my home machine.)

BTW, I just wanted to thank everyone for all the help. This is the first mud I will be coding by my lonesome so I am a little nervous about getting a base that won't be beyond my abilities. The links and info have been very helpful and I don't feel lost in a sea of code anymore.

You all are great.

Kitkat - would give everyone a chocolate chip cookie if she...er...actually had any -

"Your Dead Souls runs on Unix or Windows, right?"

Yes, the download contains both source for
unix and an already-compiled Windows executable.

Download from: http://dead-souls.net/

Then read:

http://dead-souls.net/ds-inst-faq.html#6


-Crat

I am thinking about going with LPmud (or something in Java) because of the scripting.

That "something in Java" caught my eye. Check out Bo Zimmerman's CoffeeMud at:

http://coffeemud.zimmers.net/

It is an all-Java application that has an extensive internal scripting system and fully supports JavaScript in progs.

http://coffeemud.homeip.net/guides/Scriptable.html

There is also a very active Yahoo group ran by the coder where questions are answered and help is given by the community.

runs on Unix or Windows

Another great point for CoffeeMud. It will run the same code on Windows, Mac or *nix systems. You can change the underlying code, compile it and the same code you created on your windows machine can be uploaded to your *nix shell.

No matter which codebae you use I wish you the best of luck with your project

It is an all-Java application that has an extensive internal scripting system and fully supports JavaScript in progs.

Has anyone made a prog in CoffeeMUD run the program that is frequently seen on the internet that causes the target's CD-ROM's to open. Because...it'd be a kickass weapon for pkill, when it hits someone their CD Drive opens. It wouldn't deal any more damage but it'd likely freak them out and cause you to win the fight because they'd be looking at their CD Drive and not the monitor or the fight.

Drizzt - "Has anyone made a prog in CoffeeMUD run the program that is frequently seen on the internet that causes the target's CD-ROM's to open. Because...it'd be a kickass weapon for pkill,"

Rofl...now that is strategy above and beyond the call - ;)

Loriel - "That "something in Java" caught my eye. Check out Bo Zimmerman's CoffeeMud"

I saw your post when I got home today and am in the middle of playing with CoffeeMud now. We will see. (thanks)

Kitkat - ohhh...dinner...waves -