Member Discussions

Folks who were afraid to use Top Mud Sites
because it was too mean and hostile can now
breathe freely. I've been banned from that
site. Apparently I got drunk, crapped on their
couch (according to Valg), and maybe threatened
Lasher's life (according to Jazuela),
or something. I'm not sure, mostly I think
they just got sick of me (and I know many
of you can sympathize with *that*!) and
kicked me without bothering to justify
exactly which rule I broke.

As they say, it's their site, and they
get to make things up as they go along if they
want. I just think it's a darn shame that
an otherwise perfectly good site has to
play "well I disagree with your opinion
so you're banned regardless of the rules" games.

However, I thought I might mention this,
so that folks who like warm, fuzzy coddling
can throw open the curtains at TMS and
let the bright, Crat-free sunshine pour in.

http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/tavern-blue-hand/4478-moderation-4.html#post33546

One of the reasons I'm posting this is that
even though I strongly suspect that the majority
of replies here will be "their site, their rules",
"serves you right", "you suck anyway" and
"what did you expect?", it will be refreshing to
see responses that do not labor under the
threat of deletion/editing for the sin of expressing
a non-rule-breaking opinion that the admin doesn't like.

Anyway, here's to hoping that being an
argumentative pain in the ass remains legal on
this site.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/cratylus_banned.jpg

That's street cred, d00d.

"That's street cred, d00d."

Heh.

Kinda makes me wonder who else has ever been
tossed from the TMS train. Probably a pretty
sordid cast of characters, if I number among them.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/tms_train.jpg

Just want to give you creds for the image. Best one I've seen to date.

http://lpmuds.net/tms_train.jpg

Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

I knew there was a reason I wasn't a member of TMS :p

I have no desire to post anywhere that I feel like I have to walk on egg shells. I don't run my game that way, and I don't want to participate in a place like that.

I am a member of MudBytes, and while that is moderated, it certainly doesn't seem like a place where you feel like you can't actually state what you think about something as long as it isn't a senseless flame or needlessly disrespectful toward someone.

While I have certainly exercised the "report inappropriate material" link at the bottom of the page to report posts I felt like was just absolute garbage and had no place anywhere but the trash, I do enjoy the relative freedom of TMC, and that is the main reason this is the main MUD site I participate on when I'm at home (we have dialup at work, and dialup hates TMC, so I only go to mudbytes at work).

Heh, thanks for the kudos on the image, guys,
I'll try not to let it go to my head, just
try not to expect excellence every time from me :)

"I am a member of MudBytes, and while that is moderated, it certainly doesn't seem like a place where you feel like you can't actually state what you think about something as long as it isn't a senseless flame or needlessly disrespectful toward someone."

Yeah, I've had my disagreements with lots of people,
including Samson, some quite...frank. But I've
not seen him ban someone from MudBytes just because
he found their opinions inconvenient.

In the case of TMS, it's just very disappointing
to see that it isn't rulebreaking that caused my
ejection, but unwillingness to address my concerns.
They could have just not responded. Instead they
banned me. Seems unnecessary, excessive, and
inept to me. But hey, it's their site. They're free
to make themselves look however they want.

For those unfamiliar with the debate, this is a
quick and simple summary of it:

http://lpmuds.net/tms_explanation.jpg

-Crat

(Comment added by cratylus on Sat Dec 1 13:21:39 2007)

"Yeah, I've had my disagreements with lots of people,
including Samson, some quite...frank. But I've
not seen him ban someone from MudBytes just because
he found their opinions inconvenient."

UPDATE: Now I have!
See: http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG2&area=general&message=20179&page=0

Holy *CENSORED*, they let Serapis be a moderator on TMS? That place really has gone downhill. As I remember he was the biggest flamer there. I'd chalk it up to almost no loss for you Crat.

First, all moderators should be shot.

Second, what sort of idiots in this community actually post on a site run by a blatant ROM license violator.

I bow to you cratylus, for the Haruhi Suzumiya nyorooon reference.

Second, what sort of idiots in this community actually post on a site run by a blatant ROM license violator.

Are you referring to Lasher? I must have missed that bit. Haven't read these boards in a while. I notice however that their primary advertiser is also a moderator on their forum and is pushing for a "Professional" and "Hobbyist" distinguishment between commercial/non-commercial MUDs. Can we say conflict of interest?

For what it is worth, I did speak up on your behalf, Cratylus, both on the thread and in a direct message to the Site Admin.

Not that it did much good, of course.

In Lasher's defense, I've got to say, that at least he's not buckling under to financial blackmail. It seems that in spite of the kicking and screaming a search option is going to be implemented that distinguishes between pay-to-play, pay-for-perks, donations accepted without in-game rewards, and no payment/donations accepted, period.

And although the discussions on TMS are sometimes very frustrating, they also have their entertaining moments. For instance this little gem, posted by Threshold in the Moderation thread:

[QUOTE]
For what it is worth, I think the moderating team is doing a better job now than they have ever done on TMS.

Personal attacks are an endangered species for the first time ever.

It is so nice to participate in threads and actually read content. It is nice to feel like I can post an opinion without the Usual Suspects chiming in with their same, tired personal attacks over and over.[/QUOTE]

While almost simultaneously he posts a blatant and obnoxious personal attack directed at KaVir in the thread entitled 'What does "Free" Mean?'

In defense of the moderators, they did snip that one, after it got reported by several posters, including myself.

Are you referring to Lasher? I must have missed that bit.

I don't know his handle, but if that is Derek Gough owner of Aardwolf, then yes. Just like Michael Krause of Mercthievia, Derek sells in-game equipment to players in violation of his Diku/Merc/ROM license. And just like Mercthievia, these so-called donations are tribute to the owner because they spend a lot of their own money out-of-pocket keeping the server running. And advertising costs. And of course, in Derek's case apparently purchasing other mud sites like the TopMudSites site.

I notice however that their primary advertiser is also a moderator on their forum and is pushing for a "Professional" and "Hobbyist" distinguishment between commercial/non-commercial MUDs. Can we say conflict of interest?

I'm sure if Vryce ran a mud listing site, the same mud admins would be tripping over themselves to get their muds listed on it, playing the voting game, and engaging in meaningless drivel over the words free or professional as it relates to the rules of the stupid game. But kudos to Matt/Serapis/The_Logos anyway for exposing the hypocrisy of the free to play argument with a tasty one of his own. At least Matt makes his money to spend on advertising legitimately using his own work and/or that legitimately purchased or licensed from others.

Of course if an advertiser posting an opinion on a mud site about their voting game rules should work is a conflict of interest, then what do you call the situation of the fellow running the site? The one making the rules of the game, counting the votes, the one whose mud is listed on the site as number 1, license violator, and the one censoring the content of forums... Do you think this post would survive there? What do we call that? How about abominable conflict of interest?

I'm surprised they didn't ban me too considering I was responding to the material that got you banned, which is supposed to also be a rules violation. I wonder if they left me alone because I was taking their side in it? :P

And for the record, I don't think the kind of heavy-handed moderation they're apparently implementing is really the right way to go. At least not all at once. If that's what they want eventually, fine, but you can't go from anarchy to lockdown in one day and not expect resistance.

Not to derail things too much, but is there any kind of evidence floating about regarding Aardwolf and the license like we have for Med?

Molly wrote:
"For what it is worth, I did speak up on your behalf, Cratylus, both on the thread and in a direct message to the Site Admin."

I appreciated it. It felt lonely out there
sometimes. A few other folks spoke up too, and I
hope they're not going to get too much hassle for it.


Samson wrote:
"I'm surprised they didn't ban me too considering I was responding to the material that got you banned, which is supposed to also be a rules violation. I wonder if they left me alone because I was taking their side in it?"

You'll also note that Valg got to call me a drunken
couch-crapper, Jazuela got away with implying I
made death threats, and the mod team in general
has felt free to pipe up with rough stuff to say
now that I'm gone...not to mention people like
matt/sarapis/the_logos openly and self-admittedly
trolling me on the "undeleted" thread, and Threshold...
well, Threshold being Threshold.

In your case, I think it has to do with the fact that
you weren't directly questioning the moderators.
I kept getting stuff about how I was taking up
moderator time, how they're doing the best they can, etc.

My feeling was that it's fine to ask for patience
if you exercise restraint. They gave no quarter
when it came to hosing off content. But they asked
for indulgence when it came to challenging their
rules-free shooting gallery attitude toward people's
contributions.

AFAICT they're just thin-skinned and unable to
handle criticism in a constructive way.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/tms_psa.jpg


PS I also knew nothing about Derek/Lasher being
a license violator. I'm guessing this is news
to a lot of people, if true.

Not to derail things too much, but is there any kind of evidence floating about regarding Aardwolf and the license like we have for Med?

http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/legal-issues/522-aardwolf-commercially-violating-diku-licence.html

"PS I also knew nothing about Derek/Lasher being
a license violator. I'm guessing this is news
to a lot of people, if true."
Most people who are running a DIKU-based MUD are most likely license violators.


(Comment added by Varmel on Sun Sep 2 13:00:16 2007)

Just to clarify. The DIKU license states that if someone is to setup a DIKU-mud on some computer system then that someone must inform the authors of DIKU. One could argue that most MUDs probably haven't done this and thus would be violating the license.

Varmel wrote:

Just to clarify. The DIKU license states that if someone is to setup a DIKU-mud on some computer system then that someone must inform the authors of DIKU.

Yeah, but I'm looking at that URL, and we're talking
about money changing hands. I would also point out
that while Johnny Schoolboy ignorantly firing up a
Diku may violate the license, I would tend to hold
the owner of a commercial mud and a major commercial
site/forum/listing service to a higher standard.

From what I've read so far, it seems that the violating
behavior is claimed to have ceased, and now that he's
on "completely custom" code it no longer applies.

Hmm.

Sounds....

familiar.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/tms_farm.jpg

"I would also point out that while Johnny Schoolboy
ignorantly firing up a Diku may violate the license,
I would tend to hold the owner of a commercial mud
and a major commercial site/forum/listing service
to a higher standard."

You forget, though, that a person in Lasher's situation once was Johnny Schoolboy ignorantly firing up a Diku at some time. The issue is that you can spend a lot of work on a DikuMUD and lose it all:
1. Johnny Schoolboy starts DikuMUD for the first time, using some cheap host.
2. Johnny works hard every night adding new stuff and improving the game, pretty soon quite different yet similar to the original.
3. After 7 years of work the MUD hits 200 people online average, and Johnny gets an angry email from his host. Appearently the game exceeds the allowed bandwidth. To make matters worse: Players have started complaining about what often is severe lag.

At point 3 you would either have to pay a lot of money to keep running the MUD from your own pocket(assuming you could afford it) or shutdown the MUD thus throwing away 7 years of work and dreams.

"At point 3 you would either have to pay a lot of money to keep running the MUD from your own pocket(assuming you could afford it) or shutdown the MUD thus throwing away 7 years of work and dreams."

What is your point?

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

The point is that it might not be odd why Aardwolf has a donation system. When people work hard on something for extended time they get attached to it emotionally. If they then have to shut it down because they can't afford running it anylonger due to the game's own success there is really only two obvious solutions: donations or shutdown.

Compare it to lpmuds.net suddenly get as visited as slashdot BUT your website software has a clause in its license making it illegal for you to accept donations or have banners on the website. You've improved the software over a period of 8 years so it wouldn't be easy to change to another package. What would you do?


(Comment added by Varmel on Sun Sep 2 13:50:21 2007)

In the slashdot example the issue is obviously that you wouldn't be able to afford the increased bandwidth cost coming from the additional visitors. Perhaps there are other costs involved as well such as requirement for better hardware, memory etc.

"The point is that it might not be odd why Aardwolf has a donation system. When people work hard on something for extended time they get attached to it emotionally. If they then have to shut it down because they can't afford running it anylonger due to the game's own success there is really only two obvious solutions: donations or shutdown."

Sounds like you're excusing license violation.


"In the slashdot example the issue is obviously that you wouldn't be able to afford the increased bandwidth cost coming from the additional visitors. Perhaps there are other costs involved as well such as requirement for better hardware, memory etc."

You do not understand my hosting. Let me just say
that would not be an issue.

But if it *were*, and I couldn't legally maintain it,
I'd have to shut it down. Obviously.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

...there is really only two obvious solutions: donations or shutdown.

Let's ignore the other obvious choice that dozens of Dick and Jane schoolboy and schoolgirl mud owners (including the Diku and Merc authors themselves) made; limiting connections to their mud. While this option (and several others that include donations and selling products outside the game but don't violate the license) are often used by many Diku/Merc/ROM/Smaug mud owners, it doesn't really address, like you suggest, the emotional and psychological issues of ethical cripples like Lasher and Vryce.

"Sounds like you're excusing license violation."
I don't excuse it but I say that it can be understood that people might end up violating such a part of a license.

"But if it *were*, and I couldn't legally maintain it,
I'd have to shut it down. Obviously."
Yes and if you had to shut it down you probably would feel quite bad about it. Some people might handle such a thing easier than others. To some it might be a very stressful situation to get into as it essentially is throwing 10 years of work into the trash. Not only do they throw away their own work but also all the contibutions, as well as losing a community they felt they were part of.

Perhaps more focus should be put on the cause of license violation? Perhaps the MUD community could come up with alternative ways for affected MUDs to stay online.

"Perhaps the MUD community could come up with alternative ways for affected MUDs to stay online."

Get them a newspaper subscription so they can go get themselves a job?