Member Discussions

This thread aims to discuss of ranged combat design in a room-based MUD. I offer some of my design ideas to get the thread started.

Problem 1: How to make a ranged attack different from a mêlée attack, except for when you are attacking the obvious flying opponents?

Solution 1: Allowing the players to determine their position in the party i.e. certain members are in front, others are behind. Spellcasters and weak members will be behind and protected by the members who are in front. The only way to attack them is then from a ranged attack.

Solution 2: Similar to Solution 1: a character can "protect" another character, perhaps adding a penalty to her attack or defense. Protecting can be a skill and its level would determine the # of opponents one can effectively protect another from, and the penalties.

Solution 3: Some parts of the rooms are separated from the rest of the room e.g. by a cliff or bars, which are only accessible from another room, or by a limited number of characters. The only way to attack them is from ranged attacks. A wide number of rooms would have to possess such feature to make ranged attacks relevant, which might be difficult to design/build. However, it can be combined with the other solutions.

Solution 4: If the next room is at a certain distance of your current room, you can attack characters who are in this different room.

Problem 2: The characters that you are attacking will come to your room in one second, making ranged attacks useless.

Solution 1: Ranged attacks have a good chance of being deadly. After all, there's little one can do when an unexpected arrow is coming to their neck... A proper balance must then be found which might not be easy. Ranged attackers could become "suicide attackers" who attack you, hoping you die, and if they fail they know you jump to their room and kill them. I think they should only have a low chance to kill someone (e.g. on a critical hit) and have a defense lower but close to the defense of a mêlée character to avoid them being utter weaklings.

Solution 2: It takes several seconds to move from one room to the other where ranged attacks between rooms is possible, except perhaps for archers. Archers can then jump from room to room and be hard to follow. Perhaps a "running" skill can be added, which archers would have maxed out. This solution emulates the archer running from their target but seems artificial to me.

Solution 3: Most rooms where it is possible to attack to another room will be grouped e.g. most of the time there will be a 3x3 grid for ranged attacks. It ensures that the archer always has several rooms to run to and the mêlée fighters have to run after them.

Solution 4: All rooms (unless flagged as being too small) are become a 3x3 grid (or another specified shape). The advantage is that there is no need for building such grids as in solution 3. A new command is added which allows a character to move through the grid.

Problem 1: How to make a ranged attack different from a mêlée attack, except for when you are attacking the obvious flying opponents?

I guess my counter question would be, what is the literal difference between melee and ranged?

i.e. Is there an actual, measurable difference to the game itself between one or the other?

I see a few ways to even look at ranged vs melee. First it would be a good idea to establish how the ranged attack works, if the ranged characters are modified by the weapon type, if a ranged attack gets a certain bonus or penalty, if it takes longer than a melee attack to aim/fire, relative range based on weapon.

This all really goes down to what kind of detail you have, if you simply want the ability to have someone hit another player from a different room, well you could add some checks and it wouldnt really take much else.

I think your line priority brings up another point, can the person shooting, or being shot, be obfuscated and increase/decrease success as a result? In the terms of a simple room to room setup, simply giving line order could be enough, but then say you put the archer in front, and a knight behind him, can the knight still attack others in the room? If so, does that not negate the line order anyway?

Also, generally, the type of ranged weapon would limit you to certain ranges, rates of fire, reload times, etc. Would any of these have impact on your scenario?

Does flying innately confer ranged attack? I would think no, either you have a ranged weapon/spell, or you do not. Flying or not. Either you need to get close to the opponent or you use a ranged item.

If everyone is in the same room, would an archer get a point blank range modifier? Either positive or negative. Most systems give a negative modifier to a point blank ranged attack, mainly because it is so unwieldly compared to a sword to the gullet. If I shoot at you and miss from another room, and you make it to me before I reload/shoot/escape, can't I just take out a melee weapon and try to defend myself? Obviously versus a trained warrior this might itself be suicide but I don't see why it shouldn't be an option as opposed to simply fleeing.

Problem 2: The characters that you are attacking will come to your room in one second, making ranged attacks useless.

Change the amount of time it takes for someone to transition from one room to the next? Add a slight delay, I suppose you could also put a message, you begin to leave towards X or something (might get spammy).

In the case of a melee character being able to get to you though, unless there is a recover time for shooting a ranged weapon.. why cant they just run. They have equal opportunity to type in whatever movement mechanism to leave.

I mean, say you use a simple compass movement system, west to go west north to north, etc. If I want to do a sneak ambush I could attack, and then have a planned escape route and try to effect my escape when i fire.

Just a thought.



Another interesting question I always had, and have seen this done both ways... Do you announce who shot the missile? Or simply that you were hit by 'something' or 'something' whizzed by your head, oh goodness!

-Syn

but then say you put the archer in front, and a knight behind him, can the knight still attack others in the room? If so, does that not negate the line order anyway?

What would be the reason for a knight to stand behind an archer, though? I would think that he then cannot attack anything as the archer is in the way, unless the line priority is changed or they are encircled. Being able to encircle a group would be an interesting strategy if your group is bigger.

Does flying innately confer ranged attack? I would think no, either you have a ranged weapon/spell, or you do not. Flying or not. Either you need to get close to the opponent or you use a ranged item.

Yes. But the only way to reach a flying target would be with a ranged attack.

Can't I just take out a melee weapon and try to defend myself?

What would you do with your ranged weapon, when you want to draw out your mêlée weapon? You drop it on the floor? I'm not sure what else you could do if you are not running and are getting attacked.

Another interesting question I always had, and have seen this done both ways... Do you announce who shot the missile? Or simply that you were hit by 'something' or 'something' whizzed by your head, oh goodness!

How about announcing who shot the missile only if they were not hidden? If the archer is hidden, then the target will only know from which direction it came.

What would be the reason for a knight to stand behind an archer, though? I would think that he then cannot attack anything as the archer is in the way, unless the line priority is changed or they are encircled. Being able to encircle a group would be an interesting strategy if your group is bigger.

If someone can ask the question, a player will want to do it hehe. More to the point, the insinuation with a line formation such as this is that they would be in passages so narrow at all times as to negate the possibility of anyone stepping to the side and thrusting a sword.

Perhaps we are looking at the priority in two different ways. If the priority is somehow incredibly transient and dynamic, sure. Otherwise you may want the archer up front to be your first, ranged attack. If the players had to keep saying that they shift line position that would be kind of counter productive..

Yes. But the only way to reach a flying target would be with a ranged attack.

If the flying player is out of range of my melee attack sure. Though a polearm, or a pike have very long range. Are rooms fixed sizes? Does flying automatically mean a melee attack fails? That would be pretty cheap, if so. Also, what if they flying player wants to attack but has nothing to use for ranged? Then they need to get back to melee range to attack. I could see improved defensive checks for flying vs a non flying player though, or simply running away, unless its an enclosed space. If that was the case, not so much.

What would you do with your ranged weapon, when you want to draw out your mêlée weapon? You drop it on the floor? I'm not sure what else you could do if you are not running and are getting attacked.

In reality? Of course I would. In games, mostly of the ROM/Smaug varient with these types of systems you simply unequip an item and re-equip another though. Though I can't see why someone shouldn't be able to simply say 'I drop my bow, unsheath my 12" blade, and defend myself'.

How about announcing who shot the missile only if they were not hidden? If the archer is hidden, then the target will only know from which direction it came.

I suppose that really come's down to how realistic you want to be. Either the character being attacked can 'see' this person, or they cant. If they do, they know who the initiator was, if not, they do not.

Likewise you could drop the pretense for the sake of the game and just let them know, unless as you say they make a hide check or some such.

In the end I think that ranged attacks are cool and can work, it just really depends on the rest of the game and your combat system overall. If you work it in in such a way as that it makes sense, and is fun. Great, then its a success. I think the first steps that should be done for anything like that is a planning list. Lay down the expectations of the ranged system, how it should feel, some requirements and expected results, and go from there. If the combat system already exists, make sure that either the combat system is sufficiently updated, or that you weave the new system in painlessly for people.

Just some of my thoughts, I am sure others have some, differing or no.

:)

-Syn

If the priority is somehow incredibly transient and dynamic, sure. Otherwise you may want the archer up front to be your first, ranged attack.

I'm not sure to understand that part. Would you care to develop?

Are rooms fixed sizes?

I had an outdoor room in mind when mentioning flying.

Also, what if they flying player wants to attack but has nothing to use for ranged?

A creature who has the power to fly would be quite stupid not to bring a ranged weapon with them.

I'm not sure to understand that part. Would you care to develop?

Sorry. From your initial construct it sounded like players set themselves into a line format. So say 1,2,3,4

Lets say we have a setup like this:

[Enemy][Room][Room][1234]

If most of my enemies are going to be a room or two away (by group planning/design) why not have my archer out front?

Which brings me back to, if you assign archer position 1, so he can actually fire accurately, would that negate having a melee character behind him? I am not sure I see the benefit of having a line format like this, unless the world is strictly linear and people couldn't 'step outside' of the line to fight.

Likewise, if we have an archer further back, what benefit is the archer in the line? I cant shoot through my team-mates, and if I can because I strafe, then whats the point of a line system?

I had an outdoor room in mind when mentioning flying.

I assumed as much, but it still brings up a question of design. Would you somehow limit relative distance based on room type? If someone is out doors, and flying, are they immune to melee attacks?

A creature who has the power to fly would be quite stupid not to bring a ranged weapon with them.

Probably, yes. It is still a consideration. I don't see why saying because you fly, I need to hit you with ranged, and because you fly you need to hit me with ranged. Sounds more limiting than freeing, system wise. I think a system with flight should take into account, I may want to use my super sword of +2 Dragon slaying, instead of my crappy Wooden arrows of must. Vice versa, if I have a polearm with a 10 foot reach, and the space is relatively enclosed or obscurred (think a forest like setting with decent tree cover, could make quick flight difficult if not impossible), I should be able to smack you in the head.

/shrug

-Syn

> A creature who has the power to fly would be quite stupid
> not to bring a ranged weapon with them.

Many flying creatures are pretty stupid, and even those that aren't frequently lack the limbs for wielding weapons.

I wouldn't expect a giant eagle to be carrying a bow, nor would I expect it to land on the ground beside me and start pecking me. A more likely scenario would be for it to swoop down and grab me with its talons - but that would require it to move into melee range.

Lets say we have a setup like this:

[Enemy][Room][Room][1234]

Well, I wasn't thinking in 1D but rather in 2D. If they are in the same room (they don't need to be in a different room), we could have the following setup:

[Enemy] [Enemy]

[Knight]

[Archer]

The knight will attack them and block them from reaching the archer. The knight can't block an infinite number of opponents, but it seems reasonable that he can block pretty well, for example, two. He can swing his sword, or do whatever, and both the knight and the archer will move around to always keep the knight between the archer and the enemies. It doesn't mean they will always be successful...

The knight will attack them and block them from reaching the archer.

That's possible, sure. Playing devils advocate though, how is the archer now effective if the knight is between him and the enemy?

This kind of goes back to my other point about an archer who also has a melee weapon. It seems to me that if the combat is close quarters in a room that a knight is keeping angled attacks and blocks to protect an archer, the archer is going to have little effectiveness.

That all circles back into the overall design though, how realistic you want it, etc. I'm still not sure what the benefit of that line formation is, seems that the knight could easily be flanked.

Also, I like the point Kavir made, well said.

-Syn :)