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Author Topic: Random EQ Generation  (Read 2571 times)

Epilogy

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 10:18 PM »
It does have it's drawbacks, yes. The other which you didn't mention was the fact that random stats makes it often hard to determine if the item is better or not than your previous. You end up debating what small gains you get from one stat is worth the negative gains of another. Makes it a pain to cycle through items. This is why ultimately, World of Warcraft added Power Levels in my opinion. So you can quickly have a high-level value to compare to your previous items.

I did like how WoW added the item levels. Made it a lot easier to get items, but on the other hand you did wind up with a lot of junk as you popped your placeholders in the hopes of an upgrade, or the much desired legendaries. World quest content became redundant at the point where most rewards would peak at +5 levels, and possibly with an itemization I didn't care for. Only having to create a handful of assets for an expansion because you can just regurgitate the same sets back out at different levels with a loot-box like little dopamine shot seems very Blizzlike :P

As an aside: I'd kind of like to see what a MUD could do with interpolated gear. I also don't think I've seen a crafting system in a MUD that considers the qualities of each resource comprising the final product independently, at least not in any great depth.

The new thing I'm recently doing with randomly generated items is adding the blueprint to be generated when the item is generated The blueprint is the materials needed to replicate the item. That blueprint is tossed into a pool of other randomly generated item blueprints that can be discovered by crafters so they can reproduce the exact item to be sold on the player-driven market. That way the players finding this items are actually feeding content to crafters who want to make those items.

win-win

I've always kind of liked random recipe rewarding type stuff when it wasn't a big deal. It might be a nice touch to make some require deconstruction to learn the blueprint, so a player may have to make a few decisions with what they've found. On one hand, maybe it's really up their alley, so they want to use it. On the other, maybe someone could take it apart, and make them two of the item. Just handing out the blueprint sounds like a pretty good QoL improvement all by itself, though.

Xander Carinus

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 10:54 PM »
I do have plans for blueprints that I will discuss once I get to that area of crafting.  Suffice to say, that player crafted items will exceed what can be randomly generated.
If killing them with kindness doesn't work, a sword works pretty well.

Darkozx

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 12:01 AM »
Hades....I make my first real demand to you. Rename plastic armor to something else...like bronze, iron or even wood haha. Plastic...no...bad. All I can see is a poorly dressed cosplayer wearing plastic armor. I'm not even sure if plastic exists in the FF universe haha but who would use it as an armor?! Take this post with some humor in mind but seriously...no plastic armor.
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Molly

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 7:40 AM »
Hades....I make my first real demand to you. Rename plastic armor to something else...like bronze, iron or even wood haha. Plastic...no...bad. All I can see is a poorly dressed cosplayer wearing plastic armor. I'm not even sure if plastic exists in the FF universe haha but who would use it as an armor?! Take this post with some humor in mind but seriously...no plastic armor.

I bet there will be some flexible superstrong plastic in any universe.
We've got something called Plasteel as one of our futuristic materials.
Feel free to steel the name! :)
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Epilogy

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 10:25 AM »
As the person responsible for creating gear for the sewer sahagin, i am glad plastic did exist.

Also plasteel is even more generic. It's just plastic hardened by the magic of science lol

Also also: Mad Max

Xander Carinus

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 10:54 AM »
this got off topic quickly lol
If killing them with kindness doesn't work, a sword works pretty well.

amir.dratgard

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2018, 11:21 AM »
I love this idea.... of course coupled with the ability to still make customer items.

Perhaps the way to go is to build "sets" or "legendary" gear like a Diablo 3 setup does.  Let the basic/magical  items be auto-generated for the most part.

Hades_Kane

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2018, 11:51 AM »
It does have it's drawbacks, yes. The other which you didn't mention was the fact that random stats makes it often hard to determine if the item is better or not than your previous. You end up debating what small gains you get from one stat is worth the negative gains of another. Makes it a pain to cycle through items.

I actually think that could be a boon.  Our "autoset" stuff specifically randomizes stats (which is what practically every piece of EQ in the game is set by) but the randomization is set according to the level of the item (and whether the parameter of standard, shop, or quest is set).  Various stats and other add affects are weighted by a point system, so everything (standard level 50, for example) has the same points, but they might be distributed differently.  What this ends up accomplishing is letting players seek and find equipment that tailors to their specific build and play style, rather than churning out cookie cutter equipment sets where everyone automatically goes for X piece of equipment because its the best.  I enjoy seeing conversations between players weighing the benefits of more defense on an item versus a higher cast cap or a bonus to power.

Hades....I make my first real demand to you. Rename plastic armor to something else...like bronze, iron or even wood haha. Plastic...no...bad. All I can see is a poorly dressed cosplayer wearing plastic armor. I'm not even sure if plastic exists in the FF universe haha but who would use it as an armor?! Take this post with some humor in mind but seriously...no plastic armor.

LOL.  It's a very low level material, for what that's worth :p

this got off topic quickly lol

Good for advertising your project that the topic remains active, for sure :)

Who knows, any of us could walk away with a new idea as a result, too.
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Epilogy

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2018, 12:36 PM »
I actually think that could be a boon.  Our "autoset" stuff specifically randomizes stats (which is what practically every piece of EQ in the game is set by) but the randomization is set according to the level of the item (and whether the parameter of standard, shop, or quest is set).  Various stats and other add affects are weighted by a point system, so everything (standard level 50, for example) has the same points, but they might be distributed differently.  What this ends up accomplishing is letting players seek and find equipment that tailors to their specific build and play style, rather than churning out cookie cutter equipment sets where everyone automatically goes for X piece of equipment because its the best.  I enjoy seeing conversations between players weighing the benefits of more defense on an item versus a higher cast cap or a bonus to power.

I gotta disagree here. I actually really disliked the fact that the results of auto* were completely random. There was nothing in the code to account for anything as far as what's generated, so it's very likely there are severe imbalances.

I also really disliked setting the stats for equipment, because there was no readily available math. What is 1 crit rate worth? Iunno. Is 10 damageroll worth more than 1 power? Iunno. The lack of math made me hesitant to want to muck with any numbers, because I wouldn't be able to really be in control of the final result other than "well, let's throw people at it until it looks good". I did, and have asked, but.... didn't really go anywhere. Why try to build an elaborate boss fight when you know that you don't know what certain average thresholds should be as far as health, etc. The fact that a player's build could wind up with wildly different numbers on top of all that really put me off wanting to make anything. In all the time I built, I was pretty much alone in the endeavor beyond troubleshooting. At this point it's just kind of /shrug oh well.

Also, the largest drawback of D3's system wasn't so much all that randomness... it was the fact that if you got a bad rolls on more than 1 thing for what could have otherwise been a perfect item necessitates finding the exact same item a second time, third, fourth, etc. until the RNG gods see the plume of smoke rising over the burnt offering of your neighbor's goat. You could only reroll 1 single attribute of an item, and the results of that re-rolling were twofold reliant on RNG: You had to hope that the Strength rolled up as Dexterity, and that the numeric value of the bonus also rolled high in the same roll. If you got Dex, but the possible roll of Dex is [1 - 250] and you rolled a 3... well... guess you gotta reroll, which, I haven't mentioned yet, uses hard-to-obtain items that involve sacrificing legendary-grade gear, and other misc. resources whose required count increases with each successive reroll of that item.

So your loot boxes have rolls, and your items have rolls, and those rolls have rolls, and those rolls have ro-

It's a ****ing mess that was created with the idea that most people won't be happy with what it is they've looted, but someone else might be, so hey, let's put up a cash auction house so everyone can pay cash to have what they want from someone else, and we're gonna take one hell of a percentage. I forget the exact details, but it was not good. Blizzard followed up almost immediately with the loot box extravaganza that culminated with EA's pretty disastrous SW Battlefront 2 launch. So... if I were a MUD who operated on free, I probably wouldn't design any systems around what amounts of a treadmill between loot boxes.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 12:48 PM by Epilogy »

Xander Carinus

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2018, 2:13 PM »
the benefit of coding the random EQ generator yourself is you have the math, you set the math... so you make the math work for you and what you are going for :)

I never had an issue with Diablo 3's equipment generation.  Everyone will have a different opinion though.
If killing them with kindness doesn't work, a sword works pretty well.

Epilogy

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2018, 2:47 PM »
the benefit of coding the random EQ generator yourself is you have the math, you set the math... so you make the math work for you and what you are going for :)

Provided you sat down, and did all the math first.

Most people just yolo it in with inherited code, and can't, offhand, tell you the impact of stats on final results. It's kind of like Apple, IT JUST WORKS! Things usually devolve into a cat-and-mouse game of whatever happens to be too far out of line, or not working completely, or whatever is causing unintended results. Bob Ross was amazing, but most mud admins just can't quite get the right things to the right spots with just free hand. One of the things I think most people expect to come with the territory of a free MUD. Why would they? Just frustrating, sometimes.

secrete

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2018, 3:01 PM »
Most people just yolo it in with inherited code, and can't, offhand, tell you the impact of stats on final results.

Really? That's what you're calling it?
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Xander Carinus

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 3:13 PM »
yeah, the math follows a strict formula of ranges based on the EQ level... and the EQ level is generated by the victim level.   Therefore a level 1 item has a low of X on a stat and a high of X...   a level 2 item would have a low of X and a high of X. 

The only thing that can really get hard to calculate is the item value ($$)  which does run through several different checks, either adding, or subtracting, or even multiplying the result.  Regardless no item is worth more than 7,000 gold... which translates to about 700 selling to a shop, or more based on your mercantile (separate feat stat).

so, the math I am using is nothing crazy to where it would be a range of, say, +/- 100 hit/damroll per same level and same named sword.  a level 50 item essentially has a 50 point swing but never lower than the item level itself.  The lower the level of the item, the less of a gap there is in the random stats. 

make sense?
If killing them with kindness doesn't work, a sword works pretty well.

Xander Carinus

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 3:16 PM »
the only exception to the gap rule mentioned, are legendary items (for obvious reasons... they are legendary)
If killing them with kindness doesn't work, a sword works pretty well.

Hades_Kane

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Re: Random EQ Generation
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2018, 5:08 PM »
I actually think that could be a boon.  Our "autoset" stuff specifically randomizes stats (which is what practically every piece of EQ in the game is set by) but the randomization is set according to the level of the item (and whether the parameter of standard, shop, or quest is set).  Various stats and other add affects are weighted by a point system, so everything (standard level 50, for example) has the same points, but they might be distributed differently.  What this ends up accomplishing is letting players seek and find equipment that tailors to their specific build and play style, rather than churning out cookie cutter equipment sets where everyone automatically goes for X piece of equipment because its the best.  I enjoy seeing conversations between players weighing the benefits of more defense on an item versus a higher cast cap or a bonus to power.

I gotta disagree here. I actually really disliked the fact that the results of auto* were completely random. There was nothing in the code to account for anything as far as what's generated, so it's very likely there are severe imbalances.

It's not completely random, though.

Let's look at armor, for example, there is a total point value that is drawn from a combination of level of the item and its wear slot, which is then modified by the "type" of autoset that is used.  Every thing that can be added is "weighted" on how many points it adds, and things are added until the total point cap is reached.  The chances for each of these things being added is also checked according to whether the armor is robe, light, medium, or heavy.

Defense is checked first, with each point of defense adds a 1 point to the total count.  HP is next, with each increment of 25 points of increased hp adding 5 points.  Both Defense and HP follow from heavy->robe with regards to the chances of it adding.  MP is checked next, with the chances reversed from robe->heavy, with each 25 points adding 5 points as well.  It double checks for total points, and if not, it continues.

Cast level -> Cast cap -> crit -> evade (all of which 1 point of increase is 15 against the total pint cap) -> speed (20pts) -> mitigation (2 for 15) -> attack (15) -> accuracy (20)

Check for total, continue to core stats, each of which point of increase is weight 40 points.  Along with checking against heavy/robe/etc it also checks if its a shield in some instances.

1 point of PWR is weighted approximately 2.66 times that as 1 additional point of attack... that additional point of PWR will increase your attack by 2, along with the other things that PWR increases.  I don't claim perfect balance here, but I think its workable and close.

5 subsequent examples of how it has worked out as follows, I think showing plenty of variation, but still essentially the same trends just expressed in varying degrees:

Code: [Select]
[   0] 50       hp                   
[   1] 1        power                 
[   2] 2        mitigation           
Autoset V2      Style [normal]
[v0] Piercing Defense [36]
[v1] Bashing Defense  [37]
[v2] Slashing Defense [37]
[v3] Magical Defense  [34]
[v4] Armor Type       [medium]

[   0] 25       mana                 
[   1] 150      hp                   
[   2] 6        damroll               
[   3] 1        critrate             
Autoset V2      Style [normal]
[v0] Piercing Defense [33]
[v1] Bashing Defense  [33]
[v2] Slashing Defense [33]
[v3] Magical Defense  [29]
[v4] Armor Type       [medium]

[   0] 50       mana                 
[   1] 125      hp                   
[   2] 3        damroll               
[   3] 4        mitigation           
Autoset V2      Style [normal]
[v0] Piercing Defense [32]
[v1] Bashing Defense  [33]
[v2] Slashing Defense [33]
[v3] Magical Defense  [32]
[v4] Armor Type       [medium]

[   0] 25       mana                 
[   1] 50       hp                   
[   2] 3        damroll               
Autoset V2      Style [normal]
[v0] Piercing Defense [46]
[v1] Bashing Defense  [47]
[v2] Slashing Defense [46]
[v3] Magical Defense  [42]
[v4] Armor Type       [medium]

And so for this "level" of equipment, you might across 5 different towns find helmets with this amount of variation.  The first and third examples might be chosen by a player looking to capitalize on the mitigation rates of their parry and shield block, while the 2nd example in particular by a player worrying more about physical damage output with the increase in damroll and crit rate, while the last example forgoes the the addaffects in favor of a higher defense rating.

Considering each of those play styles are equally valid and viable, and even the same race/class combo might choose a different focus or play style, this variation in the equipment helps a player be able to tailor to their own specific needs.

Quote
I also really disliked setting the stats for equipment, because there was no readily available math. What is 1 crit rate worth? Iunno. Is 10 damageroll worth more than 1 power? Iunno. The lack of math made me hesitant to want to muck with any numbers, because I wouldn't be able to really be in control of the final result other than "well, let's throw people at it until it looks good".

Hence having an autoset system where a builder doesn't need/have to worry about the math behind something.  Auto something quest, throw a spell affect or weapon flag on it and BOOM its an attractive, rewarding piece of equipment.  Even if some things might not be perfect or a little off, the fact that its consistent across the game means some measure of balance has been achieved.  The addition of the generated equipment drops should only further enhance that, because now there's practically a limitless supply of varied equipment for every level range in the game, and even if it could risk being a bit grindish, a determined player could spend enough time picking up those drops to find a full set of equipment that meshes with their intended build / playstyle if the premade gear in shops or as a result of quests isn't suitable.

With respects to relics, that gets a bit more complicated, but once you have 3 relics in game that already boost PWR, that angle is pretty much handled and its time to start getting more creative.  At this point, and for a long while now, "stat boosts" have been handled.  Once builders start trying to tweak beyond the autoset stuff with regards to stats so "their area is popular" or to make sure that the item they put as a reward is something people will use or to make it standout among the already half a dozen items in game that basically do the same thing, it becomes a game of one-ups-manship and to hell with balance at that point, because every new piece of equipment or relic becomes better than the one before it and those become obsolete.

Its much better to just take human judgement out of the equation altogether and let a generator handle it, because that generator doesn't care if someone's area is popular or that relic is better than the atlas armlet or whatever else.  Once you do that, it forces more creativity and more interesting solutions on what/how to make an item stand out from another and make them attractive options for the players.
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