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Author Topic: Renting, port numbers and other questions.  (Read 5776 times)

nullscan

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 5:46 AM »
Why do some games work with the website name followed by the port number, while others fail to connect and you have to use the numbers in brackets with "." spacings?

It depends on a lot of factors, but it has everything to do with:

Domain Name System (DNS) servers are a giant, conspiratory lie that governments and techies and all people who host content on the internet are involved in.  Yes, TMC is part of the conspiracy.  So is AT&T, and whatever your ISP is.  So am I.  And Darkozx.  And... YOU!!!

The lie is that a domain name (such as mudconnect.com) is a thing you can use to connect to services.  It isn't.

The only thing you can actually connect to services with, via Internet Protocol (IP), either v4 or v6, is the standardized IP Address.  This address is for instance 192.168.0.1 (a common LAN IP address assigned as the default in many off-the-shelf router devices).  It's like a phone number.  All us liars conspire with government agencies called Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) to obtain IP Addresses.  In North America, it's ARIN.  In Europe and northeast Asia it's RIPE NCC.  In Africa it's AFRINIC.  There are 5 of these in total, all conspiring together to ensure that IP Addresses are unique and everybody knows what IP Address should route to where.

Domain names come into the picture with other government and private/commercial agencies called Domain Registrars, all of whom conspire with agencies called InterNIC and ICANN... who cross-conspire with the RIRs in this global collusion to make your life easier.  The registrars all report domain name registrations to a central authority, the RIRs do too, and those central authorities conspire with each other - the end result is that all IP Addresses are totally unique and all Domain Names are too.

So the DNS Server enters the picture where you register a domain name and tell the registrar where to route DNS requests.  DNS servers map domain names to IP Addresses, and your computer sends out these requests in the background so you don't have to worry about it.  It's like always dialing 411 and ignoring the operator when they read you the phone number, just waiting for them to connect the call for you.  A good registrar will provide DNS services for you, but many of the cheap ones don't.

So several scenarios:

A)  Somebody's running their MU and website on the ultra-cheap.  They host their own MU, webserver, and DNS server on the same box on plain old residential-grade internet in their basement.  Their DNS Server is constantly being pinged by other DNS Servers, by web services users, etc.  They're running on an older box - say single-core CPU with low RAM memory (lots of memory to disk and back again paging operations).  This is pure-dee amateur hour.  Probably 1 out of every 3 DNS requests is completely dropped due to a timeout - the client is only willing to wait so long, and it's not waiting as long as it takes the host to process the other 2 requests.  If they're hosting in a shared/VPS environment, then it's probably more like 1 out of 3 is actually serviced.

B)  Somebody's running their MU and website on the dumbass.  They host their MU in their basement and they host their website someplace like wikidot.  They don't really have the faintest clue wtf they're doing.  They point a domain name at their free hosting on wikidot, never realizing they could also point a subdomain (such as mud.mydomain.com) at the separate IP Address where the MU is actually hosted.

C)  Somebody's running their MU and website on the lazy.  At some point both were on the same box, then they switched one or the other for some reason and never bothered to update the DNS Server.

D)  So on and so forth ad infinitum.

You can always connect via IP Address because it's a real, actual thing.  As long as the server's actually online and running, it's there to answer the phone.  You might not be able to connect via domain name sometimes or ever because domain names are a lie - in order to actually connect to a domain name, your computer sends out a DNS lookup request for that domain name and has to get back an accurate and up-to-date reply for the connection to work.  Lots and lots of reasons why a domain name might work on port 80 but not port 4000 even if the MU and website are on the same box, lots and lots of reasons why they might be on different boxes (in which case the same domain name would only work for one or the other).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 5:47 AM by nullscan »

Flint Stovetop

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2018, 3:32 PM »
Thank you.  I have seen some games not even bother posting the IP number in brackets.  I wonder if they simply forgot or did not know any better.

Any one know what all the codes on MUD clients mean?  (At least mobile ones anyway)

UTF's, x-gsm, x-ibm's, window's, x-IBM's, EUC's, etc.?  I just click and play on default settings.

RahjIII

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2018, 5:43 PM »
I have seen some games not even bother posting the IP number in brackets.  I wonder if they simply forgot or did not know any better.

Hey.. don't believe 100% of everything you read.  Today's internet runs on domain names, not on numeric IP addresses.   If you have to type in a numerical IP address to get to a site, it means the site you are trying to reach isn't set up correctly, and you'd be doing the admin a favor by letting them know.   

The reason you still see some IP addresses listed alongside MUD entries on sites like TMC is simply historical.

Before 1995, the internet was still an academic research project. There were restrictions on what kind of traffic you could send over it (game traffic was questionable) and it wasn't possible to own a private domain name like you can now.   In the late 80's and early 90's, it was difficult for a mud operator to find a sympathetic computer admin with some server space and a network connection who was willing to host a game, and it was really hard to find one who was also willing to stick their neck out and get the network people to bless it with a custom hostname.  DNS wasn't standardized until late 1987, and even in the early 90's a lot of older computers still used local hosts.txt files to map names to addresses, and those files had to be updated by hand.  As a player, you needed to know the numeric dot-quad IP address because the host.txt files weren't always kept up to date.  That's the reason the first mud lists were distributed with IP addresses, and why it later became tradition to list a mud along with an address when sites like TMC came online.

Fast forward thirty years, and the address is no longer required.  IP addresses aren't stored in text host files anymore, everything uses DNS.  Entering an address by hand into a listing site doesn't always make sense, as IP addresses can be dynamic and change from day to day.   In fact, addresses aren't always dotted quads like they used to be- more than a third of the network users in the US default to IPv6, and will only fall back to legacy IPv4 as a last resort.   DNS host names handle all of those network address details transparently. 

The upshot is that you shouldn't ever have to use a numeric address for a correctly configured site. 
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nullscan

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2018, 1:37 AM »
I have seen some games not even bother posting the IP number in brackets.  I wonder if they simply forgot or did not know any better.

Hey.. don't believe 100% of everything you read.  Today's internet runs on domain names, not on numeric IP addresses.   If you have to type in a numerical IP address to get to a site, it means the site you are trying to reach isn't set up correctly, and you'd be doing the admin a favor by letting them know.   

The upshot is that you shouldn't ever have to use a numeric address for a correctly configured site.

You are completely full of sh**.  Don't waste everybody's time spouting nonsense when you know less than nothing about the subject.

Every device on the internet, from PCs to cellphones, has an IP Address.  You literally can't be on the internet without an IP Address.  Period.  That's the truth that your own research and self-education will bear out.

Domain names are totally optional.  Some people don't have them because at the end of the day, domain names are nothing but vanity plates.  You pay money for a domain name that you don't need for people to connect to your game, so that they can connect to 'mud.mygame.com' instead of '123.321.123.321.'  It's that mind-bogglingly simple here in the real world where facts, not half-baked theories from crackpots, make the difference between "something working" and "something not working."

You have done a disservice to everyone who has or ever will read your ignorant BS by posting it.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 1:40 AM by nullscan »

desharei

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2018, 7:36 AM »
nullscan, what of destinations that have changing IP addresses?

I mean, MY computer's IP address is 10.01.01.01 or whatever everyone's personal computers are in their own home.

But if you were to try and connect to that IP address you'd get your computer, not mine.

Meanwhile, in internet land, some of us have dynamic IP addresses that change from time to time depending on the internet service provider's needs.

If the IP address that connects you to me is 123.321.123.321 today, but my ISP changes it to 124.421.124.421 next Tuesday, you will either get an error message, or you'll get someone else's computer.

On the other hand, if I name my connection desh (dot) com and it's registered as a domain name, then no matter which IP is assigned to this connection anyone who tries to type that name in, will get me (and not someone else or an error message).

Jodah

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2018, 8:37 AM »
Nullscan is completely full of sh**.  Domain names are used to identify one or more IP addresses. For example, the domain name microsoft.com represents about a dozen IP addresses. ... Because the Internet is based on IP addresses, not domain names, every Web server requires a Domain Name System (DNS) server to translate domain names into IP addresses.  If you have to type in a number to connect, it means they were too poor to buy a real domain name.

nullscan

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2018, 9:14 AM »
nullscan, what of destinations that have changing IP addresses?

I mean, MY computer's IP address is 10.01.01.01 or whatever everyone's personal computers are in their own home.

But if you were to try and connect to that IP address you'd get your computer, not mine.

Meanwhile, in internet land, some of us have dynamic IP addresses that change from time to time depending on the internet service provider's needs.

If the IP address that connects you to me is 123.321.123.321 today, but my ISP changes it to 124.421.124.421 next Tuesday, you will either get an error message, or you'll get someone else's computer.

On the other hand, if I name my connection desh (dot) com and it's registered as a domain name, then no matter which IP is assigned to this connection anyone who tries to type that name in, will get me (and not someone else or an error message).

This is technical minutiae and while it's not really incorrect, it's something like 12 massive misconceptions.

So let's start with the concepts of Local Area Network (LAN) vs Wide Area Network (WAN).  Pretty recently, say the last 5 years and less, some assclown at Microsoft (or where-the-f$!#-ever) came up with the idea to make everyone who used the internet stupider by calling it "The Cloud."  And I seriously mean that In reality, this was deliberately intended to make internet consumers stupider.  The internet was getting a bad rap, but "The Cloud" is new and different.  Wrap the cloud in quotation fingers mixed with jazz hands and imagine me making one of those stupid, "ooooooo" faces when I say it.  IT DID WHAT WAS INTENDED AMAZINGLY WELL!!!  So first "The Internet" became "The Cloud" and then pretty quickly all networks both LAN and WAN became "The Cloud" without any conceptual segregation even though there is physical segregation between ISP Networks and Home Networks and Interstate Networks and International Networks, and by "physical segregation" I mean in many stages and styles, both through actual firewalls and through "Subnetting" and "IP Address Typing" and "IP Address Classing."  Then there are additional conspiratory protocols such as various "Routing Protocols" including Gateway to Gateway, Link-State, and Distance-Vector (all of which are actually protocol types, thank you for skimming Wikipedia and puking your vague understanding up onto a thread that wasn't originally intended as an in-depth tutorial on how the ****ing internet works, Comic Book Guy) is this ringing any bells?  You know how when you configure an IP-device and you act like an adult so you don't just blindly take what "Dynamic Host Configuration Procotol" or DHCP gives you it always asks for the local IP Address, the Subnet Mask, and the Gateway IP?  Is that a flash of vague recollection I perceive?  No?  It was the clams you had for dinner?  I see.

So IPv4 uses 32-bits of data to describe a unique address, then another 32-bits of data to describe a unique subnet, and the subnet assigned to any particular device modifies its behavior with network packets and routing the same way a telephone number uses 4 digits for the "Subscriber Code" and 3 digits for the "Exchange Code" and 3 more digits for the "Area Code" so that you and John Doe can both have a phone number ending in 1337 and you and John Doe and Joe Blow can all have a local contact number of 500-1337 but all 3 of you wannabes HAVE DIFFERENT AREA CODES such as 707-500-1337.  Then you can add COUNTRY CODES to get even more fun out of it - now you and John Doe and Joe Blow and even Ivan Votoloshka can be 707-500-1337 because you're 707-707-500-1337 and John is 633-707-500-1337 and Joe is 844-707-500-1337 and Ivan is XDXD-LOL-SOO-LEET too.

Finally, yes - if you hand out your IP Address and then your ISP changes your IP Address, connections will fail.  What you don't seem to comprehend is that the same is true whether you point a ****ing domain name at it or not.  If you were to point a domain name at an IP Address that was then changed on you, then ALL YOUR INCOMING NETWORK REQUESTS TO THAT DOMAIN NAME WOULD BE ROUTED TO WHOEVER THE HELL GOT THAT IP AT THE NEXT DHCP CYCLE JUST LIKE IF THE END-USER HAD SUPPLIED YOUR IP INSTEAD OF YOUR DOMAIN NAME.  The only way domain services are worth half a sh** in a DHCP scenario is when you sign up for a service like dyndns and install their special software on your computer, which does nothing but automate the process of updating the DNS Server with wtf-ever your IP Address is now - or you can check your IP yourself every few hours and make any necessary updates manually.

Nullscan is completely full of sh**.  Domain names are used to identify one or more IP addresses. For example, the domain name microsoft.com represents about a dozen IP addresses. ... Because the Internet is based on IP addresses, not domain names, every Web server requires a Domain Name System (DNS) server to translate domain names into IP addresses.  If you have to type in a number to connect, it means they were too poor to buy a real domain name.

This is because of what's called "load balancing" and "cluster servers" you halfwit.  When X-number of requests-per-timeslice are DNS-routed to IP X, it moves on to responding with Y instead for the next timeslice.  Or when a stock DNS server is configured to direct domain name requests to multiple IP Addresses, they can be returned in a round-robin fashion.  This doesn't magically make a domain name representative of multiple addresses - it means M$ spent a lot of $ on developing their DNS server.

And you're only even that close to a gross misconception if you think you mean because pinging www.microsoft.com separate times results in pinging different IPs every time - if you think you mean because www.microsoft.com and msdn.microsoft.com are on different IPs, then you don't understand DNS servers, IP Addresses or the basic concept of domains vs subdomains then you're saying I'm full of sh** because you're too stupid to learn.

"Take one karate class, if you're so into karate." - Charlie Kelley
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 5:55 PM by nullscan »

Hades_Kane

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2018, 12:57 PM »
Issued a 24 hour cooldown for both Jodah and Nullscan.
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Darkozx

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2018, 2:04 PM »
Poor Jodah, he barely said anything and was only responding...not even really looking for a fight. While you're at it, take care of your buddy TheDude for sending tranny's getting anal penetrated in PMs. I'm sure that should entail a longer than 24 hour ban.
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Tijer

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2018, 2:08 PM »
Actually he did do stuff warranting a ban, i was attempting to go without banning either with my mod edit on his post (removing some stuff about Jodah from Nullscan) 
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Redskull

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 3:02 AM »
As an observer I thought it was fairly obvious Jodah was pointing out nothing happend to nullscan when he said somebody was "full of sh**" by mimicing the same words.  nullscan got away free but Jodah gets punished. Jodah's response was taken as equal to nullscan wishing real life death on somebody with an extremely harsh and vulgar post.  How is nullscan's response proportional at all, much less equal of the same punishment, wtf is wrong with the mods here?

Epilogy

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 3:33 AM »
As an observer I thought it was fairly obvious Jodah was pointing out nothing happend to nullscan when he said somebody was "full of sh**" by mimicing the same words.  nullscan got away free but Jodah gets punished. Jodah's response was taken as equal to nullscan wishing real life death on somebody with an extremely harsh and vulgar post.  How is nullscan's response proportional at all, much less equal of the same punishment, wtf is wrong with the mods here?

Mostly that Jodah plays devil's advocate often enough for the sake of driving discussion, while nullscan is mostly just being offensive.

I like Jodah, mostly. He can get a bit much, but he's still usually good for pulling something out of left field that makes you pause, and consider the angle of the perspective he's coming with. Some just regard him as a worthless troll, but I quietly appreciate his added perspective on many topics, though not all. He definitely can push the envelope.

Nullscan is fairly new, and often attempts to use logic as a weapon. What he can't batter down with pure logic, he'll slip in the side something meant to incite. He generally thinks he's smarter than most people, and only cares about your opinion so far as he can debate with it.

Two sides of the same coin, maybe, but I favor Jodah out of the two. He's almost benign compared to his somewhat hateful competition in the field of "official arguer of TMC"

That's just my humble, over-time perspective on the two, and why I feel things were weighted the way they were. Jodah probably knew better and proceeded regardless, and null-scan just didn't care about anything here enough to actually put forth the attempt of civil discussion. There's your newcomer breakdown of the two individuals.

Me? I'm just a crazy ***hole! :D

Hades_Kane

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 10:37 AM »
The moderator actions forum and the associated thread are the appropriate places to discuss moderator actions.  The 24 hour cool off is intended to both give both posters time to step away and for a thread to get back on track.  Discussing it here is only further derailing.

http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=81390.0
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Flint Stovetop

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 11:27 PM »

Any one know what all the codes on MUD clients mean?  (At least mobile ones anyway)

UTF's, x-gsm, x-ibm's, window's, x-IBM's, EUC's, etc.?  I just click and play on default settings.

Just in case it was lost in the fluff.  ^_^

Jodah

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Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 4:16 AM »
Curious x-IBM is listed twice.  I believe those have to do with API and has nothing to do with your mudding phone experience, I would use the default.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 4:24 AM by Jodah »