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Author Topic: Eating and Drinking  (Read 11647 times)

Epilogy

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2018, 10:31 AM »
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

But in case it does, please inform the the ashamed closet snack cake sneaker I didn't mean to assume their means of ingestion.

desharei

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2018, 5:50 PM »
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

No one is "forced" to eat or drink on Armageddon. You can choose not to eat even if the code says your character is hungry. Your character will eventually start to suffer HP loss if he doesn't find something to eat, but that's a choice you make as a player. Maybe you want to play a character who suffers, a guy who relies on the kindness of strangers, or his next con job, to eat. If you don't have coded hunger, you can't play that kind of character because hey - I don't have to con anyone for a meal, my PC is never hungry.

You don't have to drink, if your character is thirsty. Your character will actually eventually die of thirst, if he gets thirsty enough but again - it's a choice you make, and a consequence of your choices. You can forget to bring water with you on a ride, and get thirsty, and woops you forgot that your character has no friends who can rescue you so you act out the last moments of life being sad and lonely and thirsty.

Or you could use your psionic ability to find a friend's mind and ask if he is able to rescue you. Or at least send word to your boss that you tried to come home. Or you could try riding around looking for a watersource as a last-ditch effort. Or heck if you're brand new to the game and simply got lost in a huge sandstorm and the code keeps bringing you back to the same room over and over again, you could "wish up" to the staff and see if someone might animate a raider who saves your character's life in exchange for his sword, and directs you to the nearest Byn Sergeant to get hired and learn how to survive better and have lots of RP opportunities.

All a choice. No forcing, the code doesn't prevent you from continuing just because you have the "thirst" message. It's a warning that "it's time to think about maybe finding something to drink pretty soon." If you choose to ignore the messages (you get a few of them before it's dire), then it's because of your choices that your character is dead.

Last I knew though, starvation doesn't cause death in Armageddon. It causes suffering, which can eventually be severe enough that you have an option to "quit-die" and kill off your character rather than wait for help to arrive or a food source to present itself.

Hades_Kane

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2018, 11:03 AM »
Quote from: desharei
No one is "forced" to eat or drink on Armageddon.
Quote from: desharei
Your character will actually eventually die of thirst
Quote from: desharei
No forcing, the code doesn't prevent you from continuing just because you have the "thirst" message. It's a warning that "it's time to think about maybe finding something to drink pretty soon." If you choose to ignore the messages (you get a few of them before it's dire), then it's because of your choices that your character is dead.

Umm... I think generally speaking, "do this or you will die" it typically looked at as being forced to do something.

Unless you are REALLY reaching for a deep philosophical discussion here, about how EVERYTHING in life, including life itself, is a choice, then no one is ever forced to do anything ever at all; that the concept of being "forced" simply doesn't exist, that if someone breaks into your home and holds a gun to you and your family's head and says "if you don't jump up and down then you all die"... that you aren't being "forced" to do this because, after all, you can always choose to let you and your family die.

In game design, pretty much anyone (contrarian trolls, aside) will consider anything that is necessary in order to continue playing a game to be a game mechanic that a player is forced to do.

Especially considering (based on my scant understanding of the game) that Armageddon is permadeath (right?), it sounds like Hunger/Thirst is even MORE of a forced mechanic there than most games... you can dress it up or try to hide that fact under whatever semantics you would like, but at the end of the day, if players want to play the game but ignore the thirst mechanic and then can no longer proceed playing the game as a result, they are forced to drink.
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desharei

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2018, 7:24 PM »
Yes it's permadeath. But hunger/thirst choices are no different from combat choices. If you see you're getting beat badly, you have choices. You can continue to get beat up and eventually die, or you can flee and hope to live another day. Or you can prepare yourself in advance for the possibility of some day needing to make that decision, and hopefully end up being the one doing the beating rather than the one doing the fleeing or dying.

And just like in in-game situational politics: your character can tell a templar "you're a meany head because you want to kill an elf just because he's an elf" and end up dead as well. Or you can keep your mouth shut and possibly outlive that templar some day. Or you can do a bunch of other things that involve "risk of death due to templar."

Hunger and thirts, in Armageddon, are slowed down dramatically from the origins in DIKU, and made more situational so that players have more roleplay opportunities using the code, than if the code didn't exist at all.

Prime Minister Sinister

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 2:32 PM »
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

This is very true.

I'm actually pretty down with players being forced to RP, and wish more MUDs took that road.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

You'd be surprised at how many interesting situations can come up over a shared meal, or when saving someone dying of dehydration in the desert, or when dealing with someone that's dirt broke and will do -anything- for a bite to eat.

Or during all those other food/drink-related situations that don't exist in MUDs that don't have such features.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 2:38 PM by Prime Minister Sinister »

Epilogy

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 3:06 PM »
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

This is very true.

I'm actually pretty down with players being forced to RP, and wish more MUDs took that road.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

You'd be surprised at how many interesting situations can come up over a shared meal, or when saving someone dying of dehydration in the desert, or when dealing with someone that's dirt broke and will do -anything- for a bite to eat.

Or during all those other food/drink-related situations that don't exist in MUDs that don't have such features.

Use your imagination.

Or does someone need to also code that for you?

desharei

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2018, 3:18 PM »
If your character can't codedly die, then he also can't die of thirst. If your character can't become codedly ill/infirm/weak from hunger, then no one will take him seriously when he says he can't stand up, because he's starving and too weak to do so.

Again - the code supports the roleplay. This isn't a smurf game, or a game where everyone gets to be the hero. It's a niche game for a niche market and the people who enjoy playing it will be attracted to the entirety of the game as a whole, not merely its specific nitpicked traits.

Prime Minister Sinister

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 3:36 PM »
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

This is very true.

I'm actually pretty down with players being forced to RP, and wish more MUDs took that road.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

You'd be surprised at how many interesting situations can come up over a shared meal, or when saving someone dying of dehydration in the desert, or when dealing with someone that's dirt broke and will do -anything- for a bite to eat.

Or during all those other food/drink-related situations that don't exist in MUDs that don't have such features.

Use your imagination.

Or does someone need to also code that for you?

whoahohokay there tiger, let's pump the brakes a little on that needless snark, okay?

Alls I'm saying is that in two decades of mudding, it was only in muds where these needs were coded that these situations would ever arise with any regularity whatsoever.

Maybe your experiences differ, but that's what I've noticed.

From what I've seen, if said situations did ever arise in a MUD where such things weren't coded, it was typically a plot device from imms, or a bored player doing a one-off "im starving pls help" thing that they knew they could get away with because there weren't any real consequences for being ignored by other players-- which they were, more often than not.

I know it's anecdotal, but I specifically remember a situation on a RP-Enforced Dragonlance MUD where I myself got bored and decided to roll a beggar that begged for food near the inn. A couple of people stopped and tried to help, but couldn't, because they were so far removed from the concept of hunger and thirst in the game that they didn't even know how to acquire food in the first place!

Don't think I'm knocking MUDs that don't have hunger/thirst code, I'm not, by any means. I'm just noting that MUDs that do have hunger/thirst code can benefit from RP situations that revolve around hunger and thirst on a more regular basis, as opposed to MUDs where hunger and thirst can be ignored and forgotten about entirely. Unless someone feels like playing it out, at least.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 2:18 PM by Prime Minister Sinister »

Bronn

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2018, 7:31 PM »
In my experience, MUDs that require the character to consume food and water usually feature food and water in enough abundance that you would have to either fail pretty badly to starve/dehydrate, or do it on purpose. Thus there isn't a significant challenge when it comes to acquiring food and water, and the acquisition and consumption of food and water becomes more of a tedious chore than an RP hook. In my experience this has even been the case in MUDs that feature harsh worlds and severe scarcity. Though that is more of a sign of the challenge of trying to simulate an economy than a problem with eating and drinking code specifically.

Flint Stovetop

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2018, 5:35 PM »
I have a love hate relationship with Armageddon.  It is cool they treat things so realistically and yet it is a real pain in the ass at times as well.  But if you don't like it, then don't play it, it is as simple as that.  The fact that it is usually in the top 10 or 20 all the time means they are obviously doing something right.  And the fact that you are forced to eat and drink or die, does in fact lead to great rping.  I have had some of my best and emotional moments from that game, as well some of the most annoying and this comes from having barely played it.  It grips you by the balls the moment you enter it's world and squeezes tighter and tighter till they explode in a shower of euphoria.  My only complaint is that you should be able to recycle your own or companion's pee.  Now that would be realistic and make for some interesting RPing... (Ha! Get it!?  Rpeeing!?  Anyone!?... No... Tough crowd... [Sighs and walks off])

But in saying all that, I do hate games that remind you constantly every so many minutes or when entering every single room.  Like chill out, I know my character is hungry and thirsty.  But there are over 900 muds to choose from and 100 of which are fairly populated.  If you do not like one there are many more to choose from and all (mostly) free!

Bronn

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2018, 5:59 PM »
Armageddon is an unusual case. The code treats hunger and thirst fairly realistically; the players generally don't, in my experience. I started to realize this about the 20th time I observed someone pull a steak out of their backpack mid-scene and spam "eat steak" until their steak was gone, presumably because they got the "You are a little hungry." message.

Somewhere between the code and the player base is the economy, in which food is extremely easy to come by, and so is water in many cases. Food and water are given out freely by clans, and its members don't have to put any effort or investment into acquiring that food or water. People who don't join clans often can get food and water in other easy ways. But many games have strange economic quirks and Armageddon isn't alone in this area.

However, the game's code is great at simulating increased hunger and thirst rates for performing strenuous activities or spending all your time outside in the desert. It just doesn't offer a whole lot else, unfortunately.

Flint Stovetop

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 7:16 PM »
The little I have played and in a bar, people "sat" down and chatted while eating and drinking, opposed to just standing around and eating and walking out or even bothering to come in to begin with.

Then there was a time I was out in the wilderness (Really just on the out skirts of town.) and I am not sure what three others were really doing, probably digging up and gathering something... But they accepted me and we were taking turns gathering and guarding, watching out for raiders and or giant beetles.  I got to know my three companions, two guys and a girl. The next day logging on I found her body closer to the out skirts of the town. Or I assumed it was her. She had the same clothes and look anyway. (I think ARM does not tell you directly who is who just by looking, but I could be mistaken, I have played so many...)  I took pity on her and was sorrowful and decided to stay by her side to make sure no one disturbed the body. I brought flowers or something as a headstone of sorts. Perhaps there was a mechanism that would of allowed me to bury her, but I have no idea. Then I came back a day or two later and the body was gone as I recall. 

My memory's a little foggy, but that is how I remember it anyway.  I have no idea what happened to her companions for the better or worse.  I want to say bettles got her, but maybe they had turned on her.  Or maybe she tried to run with the items and or money and they caught her.  Or someone else mugged and killed her... Who knows...  Part of the mystery...

Trying to say I can get the same experience from a "vanilla" mud is not possible.  There are other games that take it as seriously, or so I reckon, but most do not.  Whether you like it or not it was enough of an event to remember and me bother sharing with you all.

Kermorvan

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2018, 11:19 AM »
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.

desharei

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 12:01 PM »
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.

Not hijacking at all. If you want to explain how thirst and hunger work best in your game, by all means tell us. Anyone is welcome to discuss the subject (coded hunger/thirst). I and a couple of others enjoy the coded hunger and thirst specifically because the game we play does it in a way that we enjoy it.

But when someone says "hunger/thirst sucks in muds because a, b, and c is empirically true" then those of us who experience otherwise will chime in and say "that's not empirically true because on our mud d, e, and f instead."

Epilogy

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2018, 12:08 PM »
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.

Given their aggressiveness here, and on reddit, I'm fairly sure they're being given some kind of incentive. Ateraan left a large vacuum, so I guess the award of "will you please shut the **** up already" now goes to armageddon.