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Author Topic: Eating and Drinking  (Read 8299 times)

Darkozx

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Eating and Drinking
« on: April 27, 2018, 3:16 PM »
Eating and drinking, some hate it, some enjoy it and most ignore it. It comes stock with most MUDs and usually helps determines your natural regen. Some MUDs will go as far as killing your character if you do not eat or drink. But what does your MUD do and what is your take on eating and drinking in MUDs? Do you think there could be a better way to go about it, should it be left alone or maybe even removed(if not already)? I'm not talking about in general, just your MUD or your favorite MUD you play. Let's get this started, seems I'll go first.

This is copied from part of the eat help file.

Each time you eat something you restore 2% powerlevel.
Each time you drink something you have a 50% to restore 2.5% ki.
Eating and drinking can restore 1-4% fatigue.
Food will spoil and rot over time, each real life hour your food will slightly spoil.
The more hunger your food restores, the longer it will last without rotting.

That's just the basics of what I added for eating and drinking, some other races take a step further but let's get in some other MUDs before I go into too much detail about DBE.
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Hades_Kane

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 5:15 PM »
Thanks for focusing the discussion out of that promo thread.

I'll go second!

Under normal circumstances, End of Time doesn't feature hunger or thirst however there is food and drink (along with getting full from both).  Eating food will normally restore a small amount of HP, while there are some specialized food items that can have additional affects.  Builders can also script food items to do special things upon eating them, as well.

We do have an area called the Desert of Scorching Heat that makes use of the room flag "dry" that factors thirst via the "heatstroke" status affect.  Basically, any room flagged dry will inflict "heatstroke" on a character who is thirsty, which enacts stat penalties and damage (and can lead to death).  Simply drinking to full from this point (and remaining hydrated) will remove heatstroke.  We have a fire-based spell that inflicts heatstroke, as well.

Otherwise, though, we've looked at hunger/thirst as a normal, everyday mechanism as being a needless annoyance for some sake of "realism" or tradition, especially since MOST of the games where that's a thing people just set triggers to handle it and never really think much about it other than buying food/drink as almost a playtime maintenance tax.
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desharei

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2018, 9:39 PM »
Here's my paste of my post in the other thread:
Quote
Hunger and thirst code don't bother me as long as they're spaced apart by a reasonable real-world time window. If you have to eat or drink something every real-life half-hour, no matter what the circumstances or your character's surroundings, it could make for some incredibly awkward roleplay.

For instance - having to take a sip of a canteen every half hour makes sense if your character is riding around outside in a desert environment. But not if he's sitting down in his own apartment. Having to eat every half hour makes sense if he's doing a lot of physical exertion (burning a lot of calories) but not if he's just hanging out at the bar.

ArmageddonMUD has hunger/thirst code, but they've slowed down and altered the stock code to make it more appropriate for the setting while increasing playability. The setting is a post-apocalyptic desert planet, so there's bound to be plenty of thirst. Water is scarce out in the wastes, and critters are dangerous. In the safety of cities there's less thirst, but more oppression. So players have to decide which way their characters are going to go - freedom and possibly dying of thirst, or conforming to societal stricture and with a very good chance of satiety.

Hunger has different factors that go into it, whether you've been physically active for a duration, plus the game's natural cycling, plus how hungry you were just before the next phase of hunger set in. If you're near starving it'd obviously take longer to recover, and getting worse would be more severe - than if you just ate til you were stuffed, and are now merely "not hungry."

The hunger and thirst code also provide for further code opportunities and for roleplay opportunities, such as hiring hunters to get meat for you, or being one of those hired hunters to provide meat for someone who needs it, or being a member of a clan that functions as a merchant crew to cater at noble parties, and using the crafting system to come up with all kinds of gastronomic delicacies.

There are a lot of other opportunities but this isn't a promotion post. Suffice it to say though - there is a place for hunger and thirst code, as long as it is a) believable and b) playable.


Kermorvan

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 2:46 AM »
Good feedback from MUD owners so here is some from a player.

In the fall of '91 I was a mage who after a few months of mapping, searching out the proper equipment, the proper spells and gaining the skills needed to wield each tackled the epic quest of gaining a chimera pet. I was a POWERMONGER and with the aid of my pet in another 6 or so months I was able to take out the feared red dragon.

I remember the feeling of gaining that chimera, it still brings a grin to my face. I remember the joy and pride when I finally slayed the dragon. How many remember that piece of bread they ate, or drinking from the waterskin that they have triggered to fill every time they pass the fountain?

I draw the line at hunger/thirst that negatively effects gameplay. I stretch that if it can be avoided. For instance, I have a Knight on EOT,  he never goes to the desert. Doesn't get the bonus from food. It gets ignored as gameplay and I focus on the things I enjoy.

I generally play a main mud and have an alt mud for a change of pace. Over the years one or the other disappear, die off etc. so I am on the search again. I ask early when getting on a mud about hunger/thirst. If its has negative effects and can't be ignored I'm gone, simple as that. Plenty of times the answer, even from IMMS, is just trigger it. This was mentioned in the other thread, if the entire player base uses a client work around for a game feature, is it really something you feel is adding to your MUD?

With respect to the Owners here, I would ask how many people play your MUD for the hunger/thirst feature? I would also ask. How many people Don't play your MUD for the hunger/thirst feture?

Kolem

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 10:39 AM »
First of all, thank you for transferring this discussion out of my promotional post. It was beginning to feel a bit derailing, to be honest.  Speaking only as a player, hunger and thirst in my MUD can never actively damage the player, but they can be 'distractions'--in short, they impede skill percentages by ten percent each.  I suppose to some extent I've been spoiled, because the Cleft--my native MUD--has a variety of entertaining, beneficial food items. I don't just mean generic cheap stuff, though that's certainly available--I mean things like fresh-caught fish, or cooked pasta, or cakes, or pies. Not all of it is equally nutritious, and some different Races have increased or decreased hunger or thirst rates as benefits or drawbacks. One race does not eat at all, and at least one grows hungry more quickly, so they're encouraged to seek out more nutritious items.

I'm unfamiliar with other MUDs, so I thought this was a more standard feature than it is.  And I do respect those who say that hunger or thirst prompts can interfere with roleplaying--if your game is focused on roleplaying, certainly, it would be aggravating. It did in fact interfere, historically, when in-game roleplaying groups got together; there were various solutions attempted. (As I'm not heavily into in-game roleplay in that way, it was less of a concern for me.) Some of the attempted solutions was a focus on world notes, which are more post-by-play esque, but during a forced couple-year sabbatical the game I play transitioned to hosting relevant roleplays using a dedicated discord.

I suppose it's very difficult to balance game concerns and roleplay concerns at the same time, isn't it?

Edit: For clarity, here is the helpfile for hunger and thirst from my game.

help hunger

EAT HUNGER HUNGRY SATIATION FOOD PILLS
Syntax: eat <object>
        eat =food
 
When you're hungry, eat something!
 
SATIATION is how much food satisfies you.
FULLNESS is how full food makes you.
Food with low satiation and high fullness makes you feel full but you might
still be hungry (such as filling but unnutricious foods like cake).
 
Pills do not affect satiation or fullness, but you cannot eat them if you are
full.
 
Being hungry penalizes your regeneration rates. Being hungry or thirsty also
penalizes your skills by 10%.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 10:42 AM by Kolem »

Ateraan

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 1:25 PM »
Some history on hunger and thirst. This type of spam:

You are hungry you should eat something.
You are thirsty you should drink something.

Originated with the SMAUG code (which originated from something else that I don't remember but but smaug made it very popular) and has become a staple of 100's of MUDs. In my opinion it is extremely annoying especially for a new player when within an hour of starting a game you are dying of thirst. After testing over 100 games we found this code on every other game my staff or I played. It was so prevalent, in fact, that we created a help file about it.

I think anyone with this code in their game should either remove it or modify it to be more player friendly or useful. Considering the dominance of it though, this is strictly my opinion as others may feel differently and actually like it.

There is one thing worse than that though and I've only seen it once. It is the requirement to periodically relieve yourself. Yes, this was in a game I played over 10 years ago (I don't think it is around anymore) but it was shocking and kind of gross.  :-[
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Tijer

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 4:31 PM »
Some history on hunger and thirst. This type of spam:

You are hungry you should eat something.
You are thirsty you should drink something.

Originated with the SMAUG code (which originated from something else that I don't remember but but smaug made it very popular) and has become a staple of 100's of MUDs. In my opinion it is extremely annoying especially for a new player when within an hour of starting a game you are dying of thirst. After testing over 100 games we found this code on every other game my staff or I played. It was so prevalent, in fact, that we created a help file about it.

I think anyone with this code in their game should either remove it or modify it to be more player friendly or useful. Considering the dominance of it though, this is strictly my opinion as others may feel differently and actually like it.

There is one thing worse than that though and I've only seen it once. It is the requirement to periodically relieve yourself. Yes, this was in a game I played over 10 years ago (I don't think it is around anymore) but it was shocking and kind of gross.  :-[

Seeing as SMAUG is based upon Merc, which its self is based upon DIKU i can catergorically say that it wasnt SMAUG that was the first mud to have hunger and thirst in it.  It is in all of the DIKU branches of MUDS.
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Epilogy

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 6:49 PM »
It is in all of the DIKU branches of MUDS.

Laughing my ass off right now, but this is the non-fictional account. "A might peckish" has been one oh my phrases for a long time now.

In general I don't mind hunger, and thirst. It's a means of affecting realism in non-obvious ways, like giving carry weight, and count additional meaning.

If someone eating food in a game is in some way disrupting to players, I would suggest those same players apply the same suspension-of-belief. They can gag the messages if it's really so difficult for them. Don't see a need to force preference on all of you can deal with it yourself, as far as you're concerned.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 6:58 PM by Epilogy »
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Kermorvan

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2018, 12:45 PM »
They can gag the messages if it's really so difficult for them. Don't see a need to force preference on all of you can deal with it yourself, as far as you're concerned.

Totally agree with this, if there are no negative effects from it. Just #GAG the messages and ignore it.

Epilogy

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2018, 1:07 PM »
They can gag the messages if it's really so difficult for them. Don't see a need to force preference on all of you can deal with it yourself, as far as you're concerned.

Totally agree with this, if there are no negative effects from it. Just #GAG the messages and ignore it.

Just wildcard the incoming lines from the mud to * eats *, * drinks * from *. You could fork all eating, and drinking to a different window altogether, and never see any of it while your triggers manage it.

There are a lot of things you can do with your client if you have the patience. (And it has the capability. Don't look for this functionality on mobile clients, most can barely even meet minimum needs.)
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Jodah

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2018, 12:36 AM »
I love it when I log into World of Warcraft, LOTRO, Guild Wars, DC Universe, Anarchy Online, Everquest, Black Desert Online, or any modern mmorpg and they make me eat or drink or sleep every 5 minutes just to play without failing spells.  Oh wait, no modern game does that because it's a mundane chore and not fun.  I mean seriously, could you imagine the rioting if modern gamers were forced to eat every 5 minutes?  They'd be looking for a new game quick.

I think End of Time gets it about right by making eat and drink more optional while treating such activities more like quaffing potions.

Darkozx

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2018, 12:38 AM »
Actually on WoW you can eat and drink(well last time I played) to restore hp and mana. You would sit down and slowly eat for about 10 seconds or so. Eating and drinking should be ok if it has perks, a system without any perks would only exist to annoy the players with spammy messages.
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Jodah

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2018, 1:03 AM »
That treats eating more like quaffing potions or healing items, which is different from muds, with exceptions.  In other words, instead of calling it a regenerative item like a health potion, they call it "eating", which I have no problem with.  If I have to eat 5 or 10 minutes just to not fail a spell, I'll pass.  Speaking of failing spells, that's another thing modern mmorpgs do, no spell failure. 

desharei

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2018, 8:54 PM »
I've heard that some old-school stock DIKU type games have the kind of hunger/thirst that you have to eat or drink constantly to avoid spam.

But Armageddon's hunger/thirst doesn't really work in that manner at all.

Example

Your character is a social person, not the outdoorsy type. Spends a lot of time in the bar or with her clan of crafters, indoors in the crafting hall, and walking inside the city between places, sometimes shopping in indoor shopping areas, etc. Not a wilderness kind of "outside," but instead the city-area outdoors.

This character could show up out of the character generator and not have to drink any water at all for the next 3 RL days you log her into the game. And she might get one "you're getting hungry" message near the end of that third day, at which point a single steak and maybe a piece of fruit would likely be enough to make her "stuffed."

Compare with the half-elven tribal who lives in a semi-isolated outpost where it's always windy, sometimes stormy, dust and sand kicks up all the time, and she spends most of her time outside hunting, foraging, or digging clay or salt. You betcha she's gonna get thirsty, a LOT more often than the chick in the bar. She's also doing a lot more physical work so she's going to get more hungry, more often as well.

It's not a matter of realism. It's a matter of believability. It's *because* it's a roleplaying game that the code supports the roleplay. Your character SHOULD get hungry and thirsty once in awhile and if you choose to ignore that fact, you should expect the code to remind you that it's kind of an important thing to do from time to time.

It's assume that when you are logged out of the game, your character is eating and drinking and going to the bathroom and doing whatever she does as a living breathing person living in the game world. When you log in, your character picks up where she left off. Bathroom useage is not hard-coded. But it's not commonly considered something that anyone would ever roleplay, anyway. Eating and drinking IS something people would roleplay, so the code supports it. Because of the theme of the game (a desert world) there are consequences to rejecting food and water. Your character can actually die of thirst.

But that takes awhile, in ordinary circumstances and unless your character does really stupid things and has no one to help them, it's a very rare occurrence for someone to die of thirst.


Kermorvan

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Re: Eating and Drinking
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2018, 8:24 AM »
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 8:37 AM by Kermorvan »