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Author Topic: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you  (Read 2392 times)

Ixliam

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US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« on: March 27, 2018, 6:07 PM »
If you run a mud in the US, I suggest you look carefully at what was just passed. The SESTA/FOSTA removes protections out of the communications code that protected us, as mud/site owners. Now, if someone does something on your mud, you as the site owner, can be held responsible. While this is more meant to go against "sex trafficking", the result has been various large sites shutting down forums, sections recently to avoid any type of possible litigation or liability. Reddit banned several groups on there that sold or linked to items for sale, Craiglist banned its personals section, Youtube/Google has banned channels, and Microsoft released an update that bans any type of cussing/foul language on any of their services, including Skype.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-censored-internet

Those running adult muds especially are at risk due to the nature of their interactions, so they may want to consider what type of actions may need to be taken if they are hosting in the US. Just wanted to bring this to people's attention here who might need to adjust their policies on their system or consider making other decisions due to this new legislation here.

Darkozx

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2018, 12:39 AM »
Here's my point of view, I just don't care. If I get a told to shutdown my MUD because of foul language or something offensive, I'll just host it from my home computer. If they try to stop that, I'll host it again from another computer because I just don't care and I will do as I please with my hard work. If I had to go to court over this, I would end up in jail because I would tell the judge "no". No one can tell me to stop writing a story, no matter how offensive or rude. They best take my house and internet from me.
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Jodah

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2018, 2:56 AM »
Those furry muds might be in trouble.

Tijer

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2018, 5:10 AM »
I pretty much agree with DarkozX here, if they wanna come get me.. let them come get me... at the end of the day if someone is so petty to want to punish a MUD which makes no profit so be it... if it were to happen to any mud i ran, id just move servers.. :P
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Rhien

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2018, 8:53 AM »
My personal take is the risk is low for most muds probably, I won't be losing sleep.  That said, it is risk that wasn't there previously and the site owner can now be legally liable without even having specific knowledge of what was transpiring and that's a chilling in a broader sense than muds.

The case to protect children is a noble argument that every reasonable person would want (but it's real intention is to remove or limit conversation platforms).

Jodah

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2018, 9:10 AM »
You guys want to follow an obscure license to the T but balk at actual US law, ok.

desharei

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2018, 10:21 AM »
It isn't likely to have any affect on MUDs at all, since the function of the SESTA-FOSTA package is to thwart sex trafficking. This has a very clear and precise definition and mudsex and vulgarity doesn't fall into the category. If the game advertised itself as a sex mud - then perhaps. If it required money to play a sexually active character, then probably. If the game owner knew that some people were using their game to exchange money for sex, then also probably.

Out of all the MUDs on the internet, I'd take a wild guess and assume possibly .5% (half a percent) fall into the "at risk" categories of games that might get shut down as a result of this packaged pair of acts.

Hades_Kane

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2018, 11:52 AM »
If you run a mud in the US, I suggest you look carefully at what was just passed. The SESTA/FOSTA removes protections out of the communications code that protected us, as mud/site owners. Now, if someone does something on your mud, you as the site owner, can be held responsible. While this is more meant to go against "sex trafficking", the result has been various large sites shutting down forums, sections recently to avoid any type of possible litigation or liability. Reddit banned several groups on there that sold or linked to items for sale, Craiglist banned its personals section, Youtube/Google has banned channels, and Microsoft released an update that bans any type of cussing/foul language on any of their services, including Skype.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-censored-internet

Those running adult muds especially are at risk due to the nature of their interactions, so they may want to consider what type of actions may need to be taken if they are hosting in the US. Just wanted to bring this to people's attention here who might need to adjust their policies on their system or consider making other decisions due to this new legislation here.

Thanks for the heads up.

Even if the risk is low, its still good for people to understand and be educated about the risks.
-Diablos
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Darkozx

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2018, 2:19 PM »
Quote
You guys want to follow an obscure license to the T but balk at actual US law, ok.

I only follow the license to shut up people here. I still get my stabs in though with little snide comments I left here and there in the license sh**.

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ryanwstuck

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2018, 9:03 PM »
bad language? there is no such thing.

Mechaterror

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2018, 11:08 PM »
You guys want to follow an obscure license to the T but balk at actual US law, ok.

Real talk.

Epilogy

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2018, 11:04 AM »
You guys want to follow an obscure license to the T but balk at actual US law, ok.

Real talk.

Not even his final devolution, man.

nullscan

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2018, 1:24 PM »
You guys want to follow an obscure license to the T but balk at actual US law, ok.

There's a matter of respect in play that's been a thing in the MU community since inception.  You made some contribution to some platform in hardcode or troubleshooting, no matter how trivial:  How do you want to appear in the credits?

I know of existing games (MOO/MUSH/MUX) that I and other people won't touch with a 10 foot pole because they obviously used some hardcode patch or softcode system without giving proper credit to the original author.  Even if you take somebody's product and mod it, you still leave their name in the credits.  This is equivalent to Wikipedia's Attribution/ShareAlike license, except we came up with it because it's common decency years before Wikipedia ever existed (and they didn't come up with it until years after they existed).  https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/

US Law is something else entirely.  It's open to interpretation because 99% of law enforcement are people who flunked out of pre-law or pre-med/psychology and ended up with a joke degree called "Criminal Psychology" or "Criminal Justice" which basically teaches you how to lie, cheat, steal, and justify it in your own mind in order to figure out how to charge Victim X with Crime Y and then spin your written affidavit justifying the aggravated assault and aggravated kidnapping as an arrest.  Then when a prosecutor gets their hands on it the only thing that matters is how well you covered up the fact that you were harassing the victim in the first place or how easily they can discredit him/her when they accuse you of perjury.  I'm not even joking or exaggerating.

So yeah:  Following those "obscure licenses to a T" is absolutely necessary unless you want an empty game (or a game full of squicks who just don't care that you're a liar and a plagiarist/thief), and discussing how and whether US Law might/should/can affect MU games is absolutely necessary too.  Both are relevant to MU hosts and admins.

It isn't likely to have any affect on MUDs at all, since the function of the SESTA-FOSTA package is to thwart sex trafficking. This has a very clear and precise definition and mudsex and vulgarity doesn't fall into the category. If the game advertised itself as a sex mud - then perhaps. If it required money to play a sexually active character, then probably. If the game owner knew that some people were using their game to exchange money for sex, then also probably.

Out of all the MUDs on the internet, I'd take a wild guess and assume possibly .5% (half a percent) fall into the "at risk" categories of games that might get shut down as a result of this packaged pair of acts.

The reason it's relevant even in this case is the RIAA vs Bootlegging and Copyright Infringement.  Bootlegging is taking media you don't have copyrights/license to use, reburning it to new disks, and then selling bootleg copies.  You're profiting monetarily.  Even if you trade bootlegs for food or a coat, you're still profiting materially enough to qualify as Infringement.

Then some 12 year old kid in the USA got herself and her mother sued (and lost) by the RIAA for downloading a song - not even for reselling or redistributing it.

The problem in this case wasn't law enforcement, it was squick lawyers working for the RIAA and a squick of a judge who went along with it.  You can bet your life savings that crooked judge oversees criminal cases too, and that those crooked lawyers will one day be judges themselves.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 1:33 PM by nullscan »

Darkozx

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2018, 2:33 PM »
I don't think newbies care about licenses or if you're following it. I do enjoy the fact that you think that if you don't follow a license that all your players are going to boycott you. That comment alone makes me want to break the license just to prove that my players won't quit and newbies will continue to keep signing on.
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Zandy

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Re: US Muds and how SESTA/FOSTA can effect you
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2018, 3:04 PM »
Let's try to keep this pertinent to the topic of the OP.  We're all well aware of most folks thoughts on licensing and this is not that discussion.