The Mud Connector

Author Topic: Rent vs Taxes  (Read 13922 times)

Tavilyn

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2018, 1:25 PM »
Even in a case like that, I'd argue that there are far better ways to control money. I don't essentially want to be punished for not playing a MUD, or punished for how long I stay on a MUD.
If you want to charge me for ship repair after a mission, fine. If you want to charge me to remort, fine. If you want to charge money for wands/staves that are useful for levelling? Again, same deal.
Don't charge me for not playing your MUD, or penalize me for actually bothering to stick around. That's a sign that you aren't using the ingame systems you possess to limit the effect that money has on your game, and in my opinion represents a sign that you do not have the requisite understanding of game balance necessary to keep my respect as a player. At that point, I won't slag you or argue with you, but I will leave, and if I know of someone else considering your MUD, I will make sure they know what they're in for.

Tijer

  • TMC Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2018, 3:05 PM »
On my mud we store objects in pfile, but we also have vaults that the player can purchase, for gold.

They can also store their gold in these, but there is a tax on withdrawing it.

I really dont see the need for rent in muds these days, pfiles are generally minute compared to the amount of hard drive space you can get now.

I suppose its something to spend your gold on?
 

--Tijer

Ralnos

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2018, 12:20 PM »
Having tried hundreds of MUDs and played dozens upon dozens for anywhere from a few days to years while also playing several MMORPGs in the past five years as well as quite a few in the last twelve, I can safely say that a pointless feature that hugely detracted from me having fun in MUDs was having to locate an inn and rent to save my gear while performing an OOC action to take a break from the game for whatever reason, and that I've actually not heard of any successful MMORPG using a rent system.

There are some major MMORPGs that give you an experience bonus that stacks up to a point while chilling in or logged off in certain "resting areas", an immense example of this is World of Warcraft which gives you an experience bonus rate based on how long you remain in the zone whether offline or online, but it caps at a full level from the point you're currently at, I believe. This is handy for players that want to chill and talk with friends or have to go AFK in between dungeons, it's not just convenient for those who maintain a healthy sleep cycle due to the placement of these such areas in almost every leveling zone.

Having to find my way to an inn after recalling and then pay a fee to save my items more or less speaks of poor game design on the developers' part, even poorer if I can't just then enter a single command to get there or teleport directly there. They couldn't find a good system for finances and thus something had to be done about excess. In this case, it's a system that punishes people for not having time to run to a rent spot when they have to go. Real life should always take priority over the game, so if you have something important to do? The game should support you taking to the nearest safe spot and logging out without punishing you for it.

In RP MUDs, it makes some degree of sense, but it also enforces too much realism and forces you to act a certain way especially if you have a world where characters who sleep light could just climb a big tree and sleep on a branch, or sleep in some overgrowth or a carefully hidden lean-to. Quitting is an OOC action. It should NOT mean your character is asleep for three OOC days which might translate into several IC weeks to whole months depending on the game. Doing some minor tasks and resting when necessary? Yes. Being comatose because you had to take a break due to an emergency or job? No. Absolutely not.

It's why I prefer RP MUDs that are based on an a real time zone or have only a minor increase in the passage of time. I'd hate to play a vampire on a MUD where you get twelve minutes of night time at most, especially if death means a lot, and would likely quit the game immediately or shortly after having such forced on me if I were playing the game at all. In this case, my attachment to the game, however much I might have, would be destroyed by it no longer being fun.

That's what a game is meant to be. If a game isn't fun, it isn't a game. It might as well be an unpaid job you do because you feel obligated at that point.

Synorel

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2018, 9:29 AM »
The old rent systems were created mostly out of technical necessity as previously mentioned.

In today's world, the technical need is gone, and so few games have that form of system so it feels more like punishment than enticement.

With the goal of player retention you need to be more creative these days, something like an xp or gold bonus for logging off in a player bought room/house/whatever. To keep a level of enticement cap the bonus and then put it in a curve, up to X days it increases, after X it begins to dissipate again until 0 bonus.

Add customizable ownership where players can purchase gear, items, trophies, etc for their place and that's most of the money sink you need. People like to feel like they own and built things, if you let them and keep the system evolving, and fresh, they will.

Tijer

  • TMC Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2018, 12:35 PM »
War of Legend has player vaults, which are upgradeable, we also have chests in our gatworld areas, which allow for items to be stored too... Takes the strain of a limited carried weight :)
--Tijer

Jodah

  • TMC Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2018, 2:58 AM »
The old rent systems were created mostly out of technical necessity as previously mentioned.

In today's world, the technical need is gone, and so few games have that form of system so it feels more like punishment than enticement.

With the goal of player retention you need to be more creative these days, something like an xp or gold bonus for logging off in a player bought room/house/whatever. To keep a level of enticement cap the bonus and then put it in a curve, up to X days it increases, after X it begins to dissipate again until 0 bonus.

Add customizable ownership where players can purchase gear, items, trophies, etc for their place and that's most of the money sink you need. People like to feel like they own and built things, if you let them and keep the system evolving, and fresh, they will.

I could not agree with you more.  Those are so much better than rent.

Ralnos

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2018, 9:39 AM »
Add customizable ownership where players can purchase gear, items, trophies, etc for their place and that's most of the money sink you need. People like to feel like they own and built things, if you let them and keep the system evolving, and fresh, they will.

Not just that, but add item customization, even if it's just restrings to make the item more thematically appropriate to the character or "prettier". People will suddenly sink their finances into that if it's priced properly enough, though that in itself could be an issue. Restringing a single item in one way for 10,000 gold would be fine if you make tens of thousands easily enough over a week of play, but adding in an option to change ONE of an item's descriptors for 100,000 would be absurd in the same economy.

Personally I love coded customization in MUDs and when they leave it entirely up to a description and nothing else when people can see your gear when looking at you, the entire game feels lazily done right out of chargen. I like, in RP games, being able to choose a set hair color, eye color, skin tone, and so on, the ranges of which should differ by species, and have a short description for my character based on several defining traits appropriate to what I selected from my racial lists that people see before my character has introduced themselves formally.

Being able to customize your items and having a rule against including equipment in your description both helps to prevent three five to eight one hundred character line paragraph player descriptions which are god awful by nature and it can serve as a method to deal with excess currency. Even if it's solely cosmetic, I guarantee you there will be players spending hundreds of thousands on ten thousand gold item restrings in any RP game. In games that don't have any roleplaying factored in, very much less so, but you could add in more unique things such as having NPCs forge players custom made weapons or armor for large sums of currency.

alibab2323

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2018, 8:16 PM »
Seems like without a money sink inflation will be a big problem.

Kolem

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2018, 9:11 AM »
One of the ways the MUD I play handles excess cashflow is by having stringent gold requirements when it's time to resurrect to level one--five thousand gold (which is at least a few hours' work, even at level 100) is required, and if you choose to rebirth your character in that fashion, your excess gold is completely wiped. Not only that, but all items you take with you have their vendor value set to 0--it's basically a "You can't take it with you" approach. Some items are very expensive, and some players prefer to stay at a high level, but I'm pretty sure it helps.  Item storage is a thing players can develop over each lifetime, but there's no rent or tax, per se--consumables, equipment, and personal items are often financial drain enough to keep things from being absurd. (Additionally, one class, Merchant, actually generates money--but also consumes it, to use their strongest abilities.)

Having said all that, I tried playing a mud with a fee for storage exactly ONCE. I never looked back.

Shamaster

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2018, 2:12 PM »
I'm personally more of a fan of excessively expensive mega projects (houses that require more gold than you should ever have in a normal play through)  or end game materials that act as gold sinks rather than charging someone just for being around. I think its hard to keep a community up and running if people have to weigh a cost vs benefit thing every-time they want to log on.

Sarag

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2018, 7:14 AM »

Any game that doesn't save equipment on exit I wouldn't ever bother to play.

So any LP mud right?  Those need some type of locker.

No, nowadays they can also save worn items. Though reboot does wipe out all items which are just left on a ground with no locker.

KankRider

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2018, 8:32 AM »
I remember those old style MUDS that didnt save inventory unless you paid rent. Those were the days...

I cant imagine a game in 2018 that hasnt moved on from that though. Hard disc space is so plentifull and cheap that theres no excuse for it.

Centauri77

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2018, 5:46 PM »
On my system, we do have rent for a few specific things, and no global taxes have ever been implemented. The main reason for rent or money is to force the economy to work, mostly because of hunger. The rest of money is for buying toys or extras. hunger is not charged against when offline, but rent is real time whether connected or not. if you buy outright, there is no such on time payments, thats a player choice.
Some get pretty uptight either way on this philosophy, and it is a design issue per system, as to why and where it happens.

Aelius

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2018, 12:57 PM »
I remember those old style MUDS that didnt save inventory unless you paid rent. Those were the days...

I cant imagine a game in 2018 that hasnt moved on from that though. Hard disc space is so plentifull and cheap that theres no excuse for it.

I know of at least one (Revenge of the Jedi, a Circle-based Star Wars mud). It's got a lot of good qualities and is extremely mature (I played it a lot like 20 years ago), but the rent is a real pain in the...

UurdinCM

  • New to TMC
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Rent vs Taxes
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2018, 11:41 PM »
More than the money implications regarding rent, I personally think the inconvenience factor of some rent systems is a bigger deal.  When I first played a mud that let me save and quit in any room I wanted, I couldn't believe how free it made me feel.  I could log in, play a little bit, and quit on a moments notice when life unexpectedly pulled my back.  It is just a little more cumbersome when you have to run back to an Inn to rent and save before you can quit safely.  Today people are doing things in such short spurts that little bit of additional time and effort can make a big difference.