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Author Topic: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions  (Read 3897 times)

Teryel

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2018, 1:47 AM »

I've have noticed some suggesting various muds to a requester and some of the suggestions are not what was requested. Though the example seems rare.

Not as rare as you seem to think. Which is the issue here.

Tijer

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2018, 5:34 PM »
Thread is starting to drift off-topic can we please get back to subject in hand... Thanks :)
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Epilogy

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2018, 6:22 PM »
If criticism is civil...

Constructive can be a relative thing, and sometimes these things can be helpful to a MUD as far as advertisement goes.

I figure if people need to have a long, back-and-forth debate about personal slights, maybe they could just leave that one criticism, and move anything past that to PM. That's where things seem to get really hairy, when there's an accusation against MUD staff.

Yeah, it can illuminate the personality of the posting staff member. It also usually involves a lot of sewage. If people knew they could no longer back-and-forth, it'd probably keep replies somewhat more to the point.

Might be useful in general. An argument is cool when it's actually an argument, and people are actually listening to one another. Crude language doesn't necessarily suggest a lack of argument, but words intended to hurt, not debate do.

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2018, 4:12 AM »
Okay now that everyone's yelled at everyone and complained let's get back on topic.

I think that Promotions should only be moderated when they are obviously (by the bulk of the moderators) self promoting on threads that did not ask for in input by the promoter or that are overly often or updating itself far too often without reason. I'll give a few examples:

1). Looking for a specific game.
OP Thread Topic: I'm looking for a good hack & slash game.
Response: Hey try out Ateraan. It isn't hack and slash but we have some great roleplay that's enforced and it's better than h&s.
Action: In this case I think a warning to the responder would be enough. If they keep doing it, delete their post and warn again. But this should be specific and obvious not obtuse or gray area.

2). A general post.
OP Thread Topic: Fantasy with some Sci fi is great.
OP Post: Anyone remember those old sci fi games that had fantasy in them.
Response: Yeah I remember them. In fact, on Ateraan we have sci fi mingled with fantasy. If you try out our game you will really get nostalgic!
Action: This should be deleted and warning given. There was no request for a game or need for a promotion here.

3). A too often update.
OP Thread Topic: January, February, March update.
OP Post: It's now a new month and check out what's going on on Ateraan!
This can be a bit annoying if every week, 2 weeks, month someone is promoting their game with the latest shiz. Every so often this is fine but let's be a bit judicious.
Action: I think just a warning here. No need to start deleting unless it is obsessive.

Thoughts?
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Teryel

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2018, 4:43 AM »
Okay now that everyone's yelled at everyone and complained let's get back on topic.

I think that Promotions should only be moderated when they are obviously (by the bulk of the moderators) self promoting on threads that did not ask for in input by the promoter or that are overly often or updating itself far too often without reason. I'll give a few examples:

1). Looking for a specific game.
OP Thread Topic: I'm looking for a good hack & slash game.
Response: Hey try out Ateraan. It isn't hack and slash but we have some great roleplay that's enforced and it's better than h&s.
Action: In this case I think a warning to the responder would be enough. If they keep doing it, delete their post and warn again. But this should be specific and obvious not obtuse or gray area.

2). A general post.
OP Thread Topic: Fantasy with some Sci fi is great.
OP Post: Anyone remember those old sci fi games that had fantasy in them.
Response: Yeah I remember them. In fact, on Ateraan we have sci fi mingled with fantasy. If you try out our game you will really get nostalgic!
Action: This should be deleted and warning given. There was no request for a game or need for a promotion here.

3). A too often update.
OP Thread Topic: January, February, March update.
OP Post: It's now a new month and check out what's going on on Ateraan!
This can be a bit annoying if every week, 2 weeks, month someone is promoting their game with the latest shiz. Every so often this is fine but let's be a bit judicious.
Action: I think just a warning here. No need to start deleting unless it is obsessive.

Thoughts?

Mostly, I just.. I can't even.

I agree with 3, to an extent. I think a monthly bump/update from the OP is fine. I think bumps from other players are fine, so long as it's not an obvious bump, like, "Yeah, it's great!" But saying things not included in the original post that are positive should absolutely be allowed, and giving critique about pros and cons, constructively, should also be allowed.

As to 1 and 2, I think you've got the severity of those pretty backwards. Spamming something when it has nothing to do with the original post, or goes completely contrary to the original post, should have far harsher penalties than a 'subtle' plug or offhand mention.

And in either case, a brief mention is 100% better than a page long spammy post.

Molly

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2018, 11:04 AM »
So, this thread has spun a bit off topic, like several others before it.

And this time I actually loved it, because the last 24 hours have been very enlightening for me.

I sometimes feel a bit out of the loop,  because I don't know, or cannot remember, which posters really dislike each other, and why.

But this thread has made things a lot clearer to me, and actually mostly without the usual invectives and mud-slinging.
And for this I thank you all.  :)

Now, that said, could we please get back on topic?
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Hades_Kane

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2018, 11:07 AM »
I split a whole lot of posts throughout this discussion here and moved it to the vault.

If you need to argue with someone directly, please take it to PMs.

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-Diablos
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Hades_Kane

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2018, 1:09 PM »
Okay now that everyone's yelled at everyone and complained let's get back on topic.

I think that Promotions should only be moderated when they are obviously (by the bulk of the moderators) self promoting on threads that did not ask for in input by the promoter or that are overly often or updating itself far too often without reason. I'll give a few examples:

1). Looking for a specific game.
OP Thread Topic: I'm looking for a good hack & slash game.
Response: Hey try out Ateraan. It isn't hack and slash but we have some great roleplay that's enforced and it's better than h&s.
Action: In this case I think a warning to the responder would be enough. If they keep doing it, delete their post and warn again. But this should be specific and obvious not obtuse or gray area.

2). A general post.
OP Thread Topic: Fantasy with some Sci fi is great.
OP Post: Anyone remember those old sci fi games that had fantasy in them.
Response: Yeah I remember them. In fact, on Ateraan we have sci fi mingled with fantasy. If you try out our game you will really get nostalgic!
Action: This should be deleted and warning given. There was no request for a game or need for a promotion here.

3). A too often update.
OP Thread Topic: January, February, March update.
OP Post: It's now a new month and check out what's going on on Ateraan!
This can be a bit annoying if every week, 2 weeks, month someone is promoting their game with the latest shiz. Every so often this is fine but let's be a bit judicious.
Action: I think just a warning here. No need to start deleting unless it is obsessive.

Thoughts?

Mostly, I just.. I can't even.

I agree with 3, to an extent. I think a monthly bump/update from the OP is fine. I think bumps from other players are fine, so long as it's not an obvious bump, like, "Yeah, it's great!" But saying things not included in the original post that are positive should absolutely be allowed, and giving critique about pros and cons, constructively, should also be allowed.

As to 1 and 2, I think you've got the severity of those pretty backwards. Spamming something when it has nothing to do with the original post, or goes completely contrary to the original post, should have far harsher penalties than a 'subtle' plug or offhand mention.

And in either case, a brief mention is 100% better than a page long spammy post.

Setting aside "which deserve what action"...

We could simply start with "what we do and don't want to allow".

I don't really want us all to get into splitting hairs over every tiny detail, nor do I think trying to break it down into tiny details would be that productive since the mood is so argumentative overall.

In anycase, the general tone overall seems to be "let's change what we have."

Generally everyone wants to see off-topic promotions addressed, which include advertising a game that isn't right for the given promotion or advertising a game in a non-promo thread.

The consensus I feel like I'm seeing here with regards to responding to "looking for" posts is that responding to the specific points addressed in the "looking for" is fine, but it would be best to link to an external promo post for advertising points that aren't what the OP is asking for.



And then there seems to be two camps with regards to posts on the promo board...

-Lock down all replies, one and done.

-Allow replies that are on-topic, constructive IF critical, and linking to criticism based threads if not necessarily constructive within the specifics of being on-topic to the promo.  Examples of constructive criticism in the thread would be:

"Hey, I tried to create a character but I can't get past the race selection"
"I tried your game and its cool and all but the overuse of colors made it difficult to play"
"This promo would be more helpful if you actually posted the address" (snarky, but constructive)
"I liked the game, it had some cool descriptions, but the newbie zone was confusing and I couldn't beat the first mob"

Examples of "non constructive" criticism that would not be appropriate in the thread but would be allowable as a link to a separate thread:

"X MUD is based on Diku but allows you to purchase in-game benefits for real world money"
"Y MUD doesn't have the Smaug credits on the login screen"
"Z MUD has an out of control admin that bans you at the first sight of disagreement, but would be  a perfectly playable game if not for that"
-Diablos
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Epilogy

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2018, 3:02 PM »
An additional, non-front page section for linking disputes on promos might be best...

I'd hate to see more junk up in the normal feed.

Darkozx

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2018, 3:55 PM »
I don't get it...why do you guys get so butthurt over people advertising their MUD? Where else are we supposed to advertise? The reason I use butthurt is because of the rules like if you advertise too much or if you bump your post too much. What's next, you can only update your MUD listing once a year? Come on guys, stop worry about if a MUD is advertising and if you don't like the spam. It's been proven again and again that these advertisement posts(bad or good) bring players to our MUDs. I get not wanting them to turn into flame wars but some of these suggested rules are making it so we're going to be walking on egg shells just to write up our own advertisement. Who wants to be like "ok, when was the last time i posted, how many posts did it have and will this annoy someone?" before they make a new advertisement post. Next step is to make sure your playerbase ignore the topic and never posts so they don't break some rule about bumping. Once again, I get that we need rules but don't make rules that determine what we can do with our own advertisement posts. The rules need to govern the outsiders trolling our posts and that's all.

Also, an advertisement post should never be locked due to "troll" responses, those responses should be deleted so a repost is not required. Even though, I think reposting to update your topic will be against the rules due to hogging too much front page time. Which is another funny issue here, front page time. I honestly feel like rules about posting too much has to due with "hogging" the front page from the MUDs who don't have players anyway and will never get any.

So here's some simple promotion rules.

1. Post your advertisment
2. Update it
3. Keep tabs on the responses
4. Report troll responses
5. Mods delete troll responses
6. Topic is NOT locked
7. People who do not like it, ignore it(you know the command that we're all told to use but no one uses)
8. Update when needed(not restricted due to people being jealous)

Don't deny it, a lot of this is stemming from people getting jealous of someone having a successful promotion post that lure in players.
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MrDowntempo

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2018, 4:30 PM »
This site is and has been the premiere place to find new MUDs for years and years. I've used it to find almost all, if not every MUD that I've dipped my toes into. And every time, it was via the search engine. If I'm looking for A, B, C, and not D, the search engine allows me to search for A, B, C, and not D. If I find too little or two many results, I can further refine my search. Not once, however, have I ever been tempted to even look at the promotional threads except to respond to a promotion of a game I'm already playing and give it a bump. I might not be the standard use-case, but frankly, if y'all dropped the promotional threads entirely, I wouldn't miss them. And I'm currently without a MUD and willing to find a new one. The promotional threads to me, are like looking for a business in the advertisements of the yellow pages, instead of just using google. That's just my 2 cents.

Tijer

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2018, 4:37 PM »
Don't deny it, a lot of this is stemming from people getting jealous of someone having a successful promotion post that lure in players.

No its nothing to do with posting promotions and jealousy... the thread is in regards to people trolling the promotional threads, with unimportant unrelated stuff, and how the Community Moderators deal with it, with either Rules, Moderation or both!
--Tijer
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Hades_Kane

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2018, 5:56 PM »
Darkoz - that's why we are discussing it.  During all of the recent bits of back and forth, there have been a few very vocal and contradicting calls for how things should (or shouldn't) be moderated.

The start of this discussion wasn't so much "this is how we feel we should change things" so much as "how can we, as community servants, serve your interests better".

In that vein, its important to hear from all corners of the community and the variety, both to gauge what the community wants and to suggest things that we have perhaps not considered.

By and large, your outline for promotions seems to fall pretty well in the middle of where everyone is landing.


MrDowntemp - With the propensity for so many MUD listings to link to inactive, dead MUDs or ones with virtually a ghost Admin presence, the promotions board can be useful for trying to find MUDs that are more likely to be active than just looking in the listings.  That's the main use I see for it.  Also, people coming to promote games is a lot of the activity here (which has significant spillover as someone coming to promote their game is also likely to engage in other conversation), and if people couldn't post to promote I'd be willing to bet there'd be overall a lot less activity.
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MrDowntempo

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2018, 6:22 PM »
MrDowntemp - With the propensity for so many MUD listings to link to inactive, dead MUDs or ones with virtually a ghost Admin presence, the promotions board can be useful for trying to find MUDs that are more likely to be active than just looking in the listings.  That's the main use I see for it.  Also, people coming to promote games is a lot of the activity here (which has significant spillover as someone coming to promote their game is also likely to engage in other conversation), and if people couldn't post to promote I'd be willing to bet there'd be overall a lot less activity.

Yeah, I see your points. IMO, the poor maintenance of the listings is the bigger problem, but that's offtopic from the thread.

Teryel

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Re: Forum / Moderator Policy on Promotions
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2018, 8:44 PM »
MrDowntemp - With the propensity for so many MUD listings to link to inactive, dead MUDs or ones with virtually a ghost Admin presence, the promotions board can be useful for trying to find MUDs that are more likely to be active than just looking in the listings.  That's the main use I see for it.  Also, people coming to promote games is a lot of the activity here (which has significant spillover as someone coming to promote their game is also likely to engage in other conversation), and if people couldn't post to promote I'd be willing to bet there'd be overall a lot less activity.

Yeah, I see your points. IMO, the poor maintenance of the listings is the bigger problem, but that's offtopic from the thread.

And still off-topic, but possibly warranting a new one, is how many defunct MUDs there are, which is part of the maintenance problem. The issue is the sheer volume of MUDs out there, and having to go through and click 'check connection' and then remove them outright. And then who's to say what MUDs should be deleted? If you log on, and there's nobody at all there, is the mud defunct? Or is it just awaiting a revival?

I was going to respond to Dark's comment, but there's just too much negativity and egotism in it to do so productively, so screw it.