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Author Topic: We lost the internet.  (Read 10267 times)

desharei

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2017, 7:45 PM »

Well, I for one am worried. And with the present president of the United States; who wouldn't be?

I certainly am not.  In fact I have never felt so much trust and optimism in a President before.  As far as internet companies charging money to access certain sites is just ridiculous.  They didn't before 2015, and they won't after.  They won't have to because their costs just went way down.  For example, tax cuts and net neutrality repeal has allowed Comcast to announce they are investing 50 billion back to America and giving their employees bonuses. 

Quote
As far as the "before 2015"...

You just gave the argument AGAINST net neutrality.  None of those changes before 2015 lasted because the MARKET won, negating any need for more expensive regulation.

1. I haven't seen any announcement from Comcast to me - a triple-play subscriber, announcing a cut in monthly fees, addition of new free content, improvement in connection speed, or bonus months on my 2-year contract. So giving "50 billion back to America" must be going to some other America because I'm not seeing any indication that I, an American, will see a single cent of that 50 billion.

2. Several companies in Hades_Kane's posted list went out of business as a direct or indirect result of the items listed in that post. Thousands of jobs lost, companies out of business, millions in investments gone. Because of the net neutrality regulations, the nature of those losses no longer exist.

Ateraan

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2017, 3:05 AM »

Well, I for one am worried. And with the present president of the United States; who wouldn't be?

I certainly am not.  In fact I have never felt so much trust and optimism in a President before.  As far as internet companies charging money to access certain sites is just ridiculous.  They didn't before 2015, and they won't after.  They won't have to because their costs just went way down.  For example, tax cuts and net neutrality repeal has allowed Comcast to announce they are investing 50 billion back to America and giving their employees bonuses. 

Quote
As far as the "before 2015"...

You just gave the argument AGAINST net neutrality.  None of those changes before 2015 lasted because the MARKET won, negating any need for more expensive regulation.
Not sure if you are serious or trolling
He's serious and why shouldn't he be. I'm not a ultra Trump fan but come on, the economy has grown since he went into office even with every media outlet claiming the stock market would tank the moment he was sworn in...gee bias much? I'm kind of unsure what everyone is worried about? Oil prices rising? A bad twitter feed? Lower unemployment? Lower taxes? Smaller government?

What exactly has you worried about Trump other than he might spout off something stupid?

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Gamblejay

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2017, 5:47 AM »
So much I want to say in this thread but I would end up writing pages and it wouldn't matter anyways because most of you don't want the truth or your minds to change. You just want to be right. I could lay out fact after fact after fact with actual statistics and research (Not articles from the Washington Post that injects feelings and theories) and not a single bit of it would do anything.

NN was a horrible, god-awful thing that I am happy to see go.

Jodah

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2017, 6:38 AM »
Quote
1. I haven't seen any announcement from Comcast to me - a triple-play subscriber, announcing a cut in monthly fees, addition of new free content, improvement in connection speed, or bonus months on my 2-year contract. So giving "50 billion back to America" must be going to some other America because I'm not seeing any indication that I, an American, will see a single cent of that 50 billion.

Wow impatient much?  Net neutrality was just barely repealed and tax cuts aren't even law yet, yet you want instantaneous results.  It don't work like that.  Read an article if you want to see what the 50 billion will be for.

Quote
2. Several companies in Hades_Kane's posted list went out of business as a direct or indirect result of the items listed in that post. Thousands of jobs lost, companies out of business, millions in investments gone. Because of the net neutrality regulations, the nature of those losses no longer exist.

You know that makes no sense?  All those examples were before net neutrality.  So there was no net neutrality then, and according to you they practiced unfair business tactics to get ahead to make more money.  So the lack of net neutrality, an unlevel playing field, and even "unfair business tactics" couldn't keep them in business, what makes you think a "level playing field" would keep them in business at all?  If anything, Hades argument's was to list consumer protection violations, not to keep businesses in business, which was your argument.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 6:44 AM by Jodah »

Hades_Kane

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2017, 11:20 AM »
I'm not a ultra Trump fan but come on, the economy has grown since he went into office...

You do realize that the first year of a new administration is still basically operating under the policies and effects of those policies from the previous?  And considering that practically no meaningful bit of legislation has passed within that first year until just now with the tax bill, that other than the natural fluctuations of "oh sh**, we're scared" or "woohoo we're confident" that Trump has had zero direct influence on the economy.

It won't be "fair" to judge Trump's effect on the economy (good or bad) until no earlier than this time next year, when his and the current congress' policies have had time to take effect and actually affect something more than the jitters of the stock market.

Quote from: Jodah
You know that makes no sense?  All those examples were before net neutrality.  So there was no net neutrality then, and according to you they practiced unfair business tactics to get ahead to make more money.  So the lack of net neutrality, an unlevel playing field, and even "unfair business tactics" couldn't keep them in business, what makes you think a "level playing field" would keep them in business at all?  If anything, Hades argument's was to list consumer protection violations, not to keep businesses in business, which was your argument.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the point that is being made is that without net neutrality regulations, certain unfair and unscrupulous business practices that aren't clearly laid out as being illegal were being enacted, and in the instances in which these businesses were basing their success on these models were ultimately litigated and they found themselves on the losing end, it harmed their business which led to the things described, and so that net neutrality actually works in some of these businesses' favor by more clearly outlining what is and isn't okay, and essentially helping direct them to stay in their lane and out of potential trouble.

While one may suggest that the successful litigation against these practices are arguments that net neutrality is unnecessary, I counter with a few different points on that regard...

1) If IPSs "promise" not to create slow and fast lanes for internet traffic, then WHY are they working so hard and spending so much money to ensure they can legally do so?

2) Many arguments against Net Neutrality are predicated on the notion that the government can't handle regulation properly, citing examples such as TSA and so on.  However, regulations saying you can't do essentially this one thing is FAR simpler, far less micromanagement, far less government intrusion, and far less economic impact from the money spent on litigating these cases then having to rely on dozens of court cases every year that carries a MUCH greater risk of complicated, messy rulings that may even run counter to other court's rulings that will just muddy up the waters.

3) If it is unnecessary, then what's the harm in it being there?  The potential for harm is much greater in those protections NOT being there.

4) And probably the most important, over the last several years there has seemingly been an influx in special interests and lobbyists gaining an even greater foothold in our government.  ESPECIALLY over the last year, we've seen a "filling of the swamp" of corporate billionaires who, once their time in the administration is gone, have billion dollar companies they will be returning to and are CLEARLY making moves to adjust the government to be more favorable toward their business interests, including some outright laughable judicial appointments.  With big business having more money and influence in Washington more than ever, it isn't a stretch at all to think that once certain practices are back in play and the courts are left to decide the issue, that some newly appointed judge favorable to big business will reciprocate their appointment by making a ruling that favors these practices.  This threat is probably more real now than it has ever been, and the FCC making these changes in the face of an overwhelming majority of the US population against it proves just how much our government is moving further and further toward being FOR the 1% with a big middle finger left for the rest of us.

The thing that surprises me the most is generally the only ones I see against Net Neutrality have been conservatives, and there's a very solid line of reasoning for this, so hear me out...

It is generally believed by conservatives that the media (sans Fox News, I suppose) is Democrat and/or liberal controlled... always, ALWAYS hearing the term "the liberal media" as a general catch-all for all non Fox News (and related conservative talk radio) media.

Am I wrong about this?

Assuming not...

Then the lack of Net Neutrality should absolutely TERRIFY conservatives.  You know who these ISPs are?  Essentially, the liberal media.  Time Warner, one of the dominant ISPs in the country, is the parent company of CNN.  No Net Neutrality, right?  When CNN gets tired of Trump calling them Fake News and potentially harming Time Warner's profits, what happens when Time Warner decides to shut down access or greatly slow access to Trump friendly websites or media outlets?  What happens when Time Warner decides that you can no longer access Breitbart?  Or during the next election, it helps filter results and speed up access to pro-liberal candidates?

Or what happens when NBC, parent company of MSNBC and Comcast, decides that Time Warner has the right idea?  You now have the LARGEST ISP in the United States, parent company of the most prominent and most left leaning, liberal "news" outlet in the country, able to decide whether it wants its user base access to Trump friendly media.

Etc.

Do you really want to hand the liberal media control of the gateway of information like that?  The "liberal media" with likely the same "agenda" control enough of the market that the thought that "oh, the free market will take care of that" has a real possibility of not being the case.

And aside from the concerns of "oh, AT&T will block or slow access to every streaming service except for Directv Now" (which is a real possibility), there is real, legitimate concern about special interests and media companies using the ability to influence things to do so.  We're seeing in the government already, and little reason to think they won't reciprocate the favors (already seeing it with the smoke and mirror "we're giving all of our employees one time bonuses thanks to the tax code change!").  While I may have painted a doomsday scenario on a more national level with the liberal media controlling the internet on a nationwide scale, its much more likely (and potentially even more dangerous) when considering things on a local level, because in MANY markets, like the utility companies, ISPs largely have monopolies on their markets, and it isn't much of a stretch to think that a candidate with the right friends, influence, or money, could effectively shut down an opponent through the things repealing NN open up.  There is no "free market" to regulate this in many, many parts of the country.

And speaking of media companies reciprocating practices favorable to their profit margin?  Don't even get me started on the real threat of the next liberal president being helped being elected by the liberal media (afterall, isn't that the consensus on what they attempted to do with Hillary and it just backfired?) and the possibility of the media practically becoming state run as a bunch of mutual back scratching takes place...

Conservatives... this should f'n terrify you...

It should terrify ANYONE that values free, fair, open media.  We've already lost our "news media" to special interests, bias, and spin... Just as "Obama is coming for your guns"... they've come for our internet, and far too many of you are basically saying "here's all my firearms, I trust you to allow me to use it however you see fit".
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Hades_Kane

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2017, 11:27 AM »
And for the sake of argument, let's suggest that some are in favor of the repeal of NN for the sake of "Yeah!  **** Net Neutrality!  My party can now push MY agenda heavier!"

When has any President or Administration EVER given up power the previous administration has consolidated?

Isn't this what the Romans feared when they offed Caesar?

Even Obama with all of his "hope and change" BS came into office, the Patriot Act stayed, Guantanamo is STILL open...

Any gains and consolidation of power that the current administration is making will not be given up by the next President, who in all likelihood will be a Democrat... and so really consider if the power you want to give the current administration is something you'd want to see the likes of Clinton have, because with regards to giving the government more freedom, there are no "take backs".
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Hades_Kane

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2017, 11:30 AM »
-Diablos
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Ateraan

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2017, 12:15 PM »
Hades,

Don't you think 3 responses back to back is a bit much especially followed by a HUGE image. At a minimum can you please shrink that image to about 1/3rd that size?

Like Gamblejay I'm not even going to respond with a huge post for the same reasons he gave. Besides no one wants a political thread.

Thank you.
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Jodah

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2017, 11:23 AM »
Well I'm not going to respond to Hades biggo wall of text, but I will say stock market gains can directly be contributed to Trump.  I play the market every day.  I can definitively say the stock market is forward thinking.  Everyone is trying to get in to the next best thing before the other person/fund.  The stock market could care less about the past or Obama policies.   It's purely forward thinking and how it perceives the future.  Quarterly company st earning reports are important, but guess what, people look for to determine buying or selling?  Forward guidance.  A company could crush earning expectations, but if it has bad forward guidance, that stock will tank.  Obama could have grown the GDP 10%, grew the economy 1000 fold, all that doesn't matter.  If the current future looks bleak due to the current sitting President, the market would slide down.  Stock market is optism and future, and Trump is part of that future.  Stock market gains are from Trump.  Don't believe me?  Look what happened to the market when Flynn got indicted and Trump's future was questioned.  The market absolutely tanked.  Still don't believe me?  With the next negative news questioning Trump's presidency (will probably be fake news), go ahead and buy 20 weekly or monthly calls of SPY and tell me how well you do.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 11:26 AM by Jodah »

Ateraan

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2017, 12:44 PM »
I agree with you 100% Jodah. Just look back to late December prior to Trump's election and  you will see every media outlet also agreed with you as well (or were fear mongering which is entirely likely) then they had nothing to say when Trump went in and all the stocks went up. Proverbial egg on face.

I think what Hades as saying though had more to do with presidential policy and rollover economy having to do with unemployment and broad policy. Some of this is always related to the prior president.
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Hades_Kane

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2017, 2:01 PM »
tl;dr is the defeated's way to try to gracefully exit a lost debate.  I accept your concession.

As far as "no one wants a political thread", Arond clearly did by starting it, and so did the 8 people that responded to it (including you).

Have a merry Christmas.
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IFamiINIe

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2017, 10:33 AM »
The thing is, internet should be looked at like a utility such as water, gas, and electric. Free market or not, no one company should control how much drinking water or quality of drink water your family should have based on how much you pay per month. This is what this law is supposed to prevent.

On top of that, many of us have very little options in terms of ISP to choose from. In my example, I had two, but AT&T is pulling out and I'm only left with Spectrum (formerly Time Warner Cable). Google just moved in, but they are not in my town yet, but hopefully will be in the next year if I'm lucky. It really feels like a monopoly for Spectrum. They already have the best internet and lines around. I have no other option other than them.

To argue for the other side, I understand there is costs involved here. But, just because I'm taking water, making it into Kool aid and selling it, is not adding any additional costs to the water company outside of consumption. I pay for my consumption as a consumer. If the ISP wants to charge more, then they should just charge based on the same consumption (i.e.: bandwidth usage). If I watch Netflix 24/7 versus someone who watches it for only a hour should have different consumption bills. Not the same bill because now the ISP charges them an extra $5 a month for a fast lane.

The US still has some of the slowest internet speeds and penetration around. When I moved to Norway for a year, I had triple the speed I have in my current location and I was living out in the middle of nowhere on the side of a mountain.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:44 AM by IFamiINIe »
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Ateraan

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2017, 3:26 PM »
The thing is, internet should be looked at like a utility such as water, gas, and electric. Free market or not, no one company should control how much drinking water or quality of drink water your family should have based on how much you pay per month. This is what this law is supposed to prevent.
They do, it is called Anti-Trust.

On top of that, many of us have very little options in terms of ISP to choose from. In my example, I had two, but AT&T is pulling out and I'm only left with Spectrum (formerly Time Warner Cable). Google just moved in, but they are not in my town yet, but hopefully will be in the next year if I'm lucky. It really feels like a monopoly for Spectrum. They already have the best internet and lines around. I have no other option other than them.
Sorry you have limited resources, but you can't argue for resources that are a privelege, not a right. Water, gas, electric are rights to stay alive. As much as many want to cry about it, Internet isn't invaluable to life. It is a privelege. Much like Mcdonalds. It would be like suing your city for not having burger king on a corner next to Mcdonalds ala Junk Food Neutrality.

The US still has some of the slowest internet speeds and penetration around. When I moved to Norway for a year, I had triple the speed I have in my current location and I was living out in the middle of nowhere on the side of a mountain.
Just because your internet sucks where you live doesn't mean Norway is faster than where I live and I live on the side of a mountain in BFE.
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IFamiINIe

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2017, 5:14 PM »
On top of that, many of us have very little options in terms of ISP to choose from. In my example, I had two, but AT&T is pulling out and I'm only left with Spectrum (formerly Time Warner Cable). Google just moved in, but they are not in my town yet, but hopefully will be in the next year if I'm lucky. It really feels like a monopoly for Spectrum. They already have the best internet and lines around. I have no other option other than them.
Sorry you have limited resources, but you can't argue for resources that are a privelege, not a right. Water, gas, electric are rights to stay alive. As much as many want to cry about it, Internet isn't invaluable to life. It is a privelege. Much like Mcdonalds. It would be like suing your city for not having burger king on a corner next to Mcdonalds ala Junk Food Neutrality.

This depends on you. Could I live without electric and gas? Sure. We have done so for hundreds of years. But this comes with great negatives and a harder life for most if not the end of life if they depend on these to survive like for example, a life support machine.

While the internet provides a form of communication, it also provides a form of entertainment. For me, it's my primary source of income. It's not junk food to me, it puts food on the table for my family. Without it, I have no income and thus no money for food. While I can do something else, like living without electricity, it becomes a much harder life. This is why I look at them as utilities. No one is saying they shouldn't be free or even taxed to ensure there is good clean internet (water) to help those ISP's pay for it. But it should be treated the same for all.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 5:32 PM by IFamiINIe »
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Mechaterro

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Re: We lost the internet.
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2017, 5:59 PM »
When has any President or Administration EVER given up power the previous administration has consolidated?

You're posting in a thread about exactly this.