Ateraan is NOT Newbie Friendly!

[Ateraan]

Hi folks,

At about 3 a.m. EST a new player came on the game and was a bit upset that the Ateraan wasn't very new player friendly. This was shocking to our Staff and Guides and so in the vein of transparency I wanted to post the discussion between the new player and
one of our players and one of our guides to perhaps shed some light on this issue.

This is what tranpired:

          [************--Rumour Monger--************]
            Belistria the New Player joins the Game.
                    <Starting in Gahlen>
          [*****************************************]

 Belistria <Question> DO ANY F***ING CHANNELS ACTUALLY WORK?!?!?!
 Belistria <Question> F***ing finally. Sorry for the all caps but I just figured
                      out this mud is NOT newbie friendly.
 Belistria <Question> Please take "Newbie Friendly" off your mudconnect.com
                      listing as this is a lie.
 Analizza <Question> you need help with something?
 Analizza <Question> and welcome and all that I was watching tv and no one else
                     must be awake I'm afraid
 Analizza <Question> usualy some greets newbs and offers to help
 Belistria <Question> Not really. I've just read enough in the varios looks of
                      north and south to know that this mud is not worth wasting
                      time on and I doubt there is even a rule in place to
                      prevent characters from simply being killed as soon as
                      they are done creating simply because someone elses player
                      felt like it.
 Prende <Question> It's almost 3am and even very newbie friendly MUDs aren't
                   always 24/7 active. That's simply not true about you getting
                   killed right away, especially in the north
 Prende <Question> If you need help or advice on something, you can try asking
                   and we can help you instead of getting angry before we have a
                   chance
 Belistria <Question> No. I'll be deleting now and hopefully the review I write
                      will prevent any more people from being tricked into even
                      trying to create a character here.
 Belistria <Question> Huh. Apparently I won't be deleting as it has no delete
                      command.
 Prende <Question> I doubt anyone will take seriously a review written by
                   someone who not only failed to finish creation but also
                   didn't ask a single question or fully understand the rules
                   before declaring us newbie-unfriendly.
 Prende <Question> Help retire. We do have helpfiles.

<Player then logged out.>
-------------------------------------------------------

I do hope there is opportunity to talk to this player as many of us were confused to the level of anger. Ateraan boasts of a superb Creation Hall and very well made Tutorial Hall as well as staff and guides to assist anyone going through creation whether you are an expert roleplayer or brand new to TORGs (Text Only Roleplaying Games).

It is perhaps the fact that channels (ways to communicate to everyone via a global method) are not taught until you learn how to speak, walk, and learn basics is the reason. Another could be that it was 3 a.m. and none of our guides noticed the new player logging in. Normally a guide will post how to ask questions on the Question Channel (that you see above) right after a new player logs in and this might be the cause for aggrivation.

I do hope that somehow this player understands and if not will be able to give strong feedback on our failure to help them. This is posted for other Administrators for ethics and insight on other players.

Administrator of Ateraan

[ddiov]

I have been playing this MUD for about seven years.

As all things in life , nothing is perfect but I do enjoy this game a lot. The efforts put into making the new user experience pleasant are quite visible and thorough from the creation process to a full player run Guide program and tours for newcomers.

From what the player wrote, it is clear to me he already decided he did not like the game as he said  he "read enough in the various looks of north and south to know that this mud is not worth wasting time on and I doubt there is even a rule in place to prevent characters from simply being killed". I can confirm that there absolutely are stringent rules surrounding Player Killing, specifically relating to new players.

This game has two major cities, split between the North and South. The North is more of a friendly town and the south is a harsher area with less hand holding. There are ample messages during character creation that the south is not recommended as a starting area. My feeling is that this player was upset about this. I hope he reads this and creates a character in the North to see the wonderful 'Guide' and new player tour system that is in place to help people.

My recommendation to anybody wanting to try the game is to take the tour when it is offered, they are run by real players and not bots!

Cheers

[Prietess.Gemma]

I have been playing Ateraan for ever 12 years.  Originally, I came to this game just to check out their newbie set up.  Compared to any and every mud I have played, Ateraan is incredibly newbie friendly.

It is understandable that at 3 am it can be frustrating with few people on to ask questions, but if the person above had taken the tutorial they would have found directions on how to use the channels, how to interact with INPCs, how to look and listen to discover more within the games.

I will also add that one of the frustrating things from what was said above was that they could login and probably be pked immediately.  Ateraan has a very well formed Judicial System in character, rules and guidelines out of character and, most important, is a Roleplay Enforced game.  Considering that you would start killing people in real life who just moved to your town, it would be incredibly poor roleplay do that in the game as well.

Ateraan tries to keep a high sense of realism in the roleplay (for a fantasy game), has an amazing tutorial and immigration system for new players and has a very extensive and easy to discern help file matrix.

It was the newbie friendly things that drew me to this game and I do believe that we are one of the easiest and most considerate TORGs around.

[Tiakeht]

Many players have been here longer than I. Me, myself, am not entirely new, but everything is still relatively fresh for me. (See above posts for players that have been here 8+ years.) Myself? Only about four. Give or take a couple months.

Ateraan is unique as there is a lot about it which doesn't entirely relate to many other muds/torgs; but that doesn't mean it isn't user-friendly. In fact, when I started MUDing (after my wife at the time dragged me into it), Ateraan was my FIRST mud. My very first character was Nemoi, a lykan fighter. Soon others followed as I remade characters to find my niche.

Just note that: I STARTED mudding on Ateraan. There's helpfiles there for a reason. "helplist" is a good place to start, followed by "help general" for new characters, which is covered in the tutorial.

For those that know the characters I play know very well that I've had my fusses with staff and how things have panned out. So by no means do I just give constant praise here and there; but to say it isn't user friendly is inaccurate and false. The mud takes time to get used to, but everything is relatively basic. Just the structure is a bit different than other muds I've tried in the past.

Furthermore, if you have a problem...? Try writing a letter to staff, asking for a guide or staff member, then discuss it. 9/10 issues like these can be resolved if you just say "hey, this isn't right" and point out what offends you. More than likely if I'm online (which I am a Guide at the moment), we will help you out. Just don't be rude! We don't like rude people just like no one else does, but even then we try to be polite and understanding. Staff as well. Things can be frustrating, we get that. Just take a break and come back. (Preferably when people are online to help. Most people run on US times here, so if you're anywhere in Europe or Aus (to name a few) it is likely your times may be out of sync with a lot of others. Don't be discouraged. Some of us do get on late at night or early in the morning, and we are always willing to assist.

Tiakeht!

[Tijer]

Got to love newbies like that... i'd personally take what they say with a pinch of salt.. and move on myself...

Still made for amusing reading

[Zividave]

Hah, cracking up!
Wow, there are some players you're like 'wow, really glad we're not a fit for you'.
Smile, laugh, and be glad that griefer moved along to some other mud (and hopefully not mine! lol).

Keep doing what you're doing guys
- Dave/Ziv/Skol etc

[Areia]

Off the top of my head, I recall two incidents on my own MUD's Ask channel recently that went very much like this from the asker's end. Both times the discussion, which started about something very simple like "Why can't I play X race until I've gained enough hours played?" ended up with long strings of foul language and even very personal attacks against the answerer and our community in general (I'm just grateful the Ask channel isn't global, at least all the casual players don't have to deal with it).

The best response to this sort of trolling, or whatever one should call it, is to remain respectful and pleasant as best you can throughout, even if it might be incredibly difficult to do so. Failing to keep on that high road only gives them a win in end. But ya, feel free to show them the door too. In response to "F*** all you guys and your terrible game - it's a joke and I'm going elsewhere. Your all a bunch of dumb***es and blahblahblah...", I answer, "Yes, a different game is probably best for you. Have a nice day. " and close out the channel.

It is strange, though, that I've seen relatively so much of this inexplicable (inexplicable beyond just trolling, anyway) behavior on multiple games lately. I hope it's all coincidence and not, like, one or a group of players just trying to ruin everyone's day.

[Zephyrwind]

You see this type of attitude in all walks of online gaming. Players like this are self entitled and any negative response is seen as a personal attack, so they will quit a game. Since MUDs, MUSHes, and other games of that style tend to feature more player/creator interaction, Staff on those types of games will actually get the direct brunt of that childish temper tantrum. Instead of a BBoard post on some commercial game's website.

Also people think that since they are taking time out of their day to play your game, you should cater to them, which is a wrong way for a player of any game to think. I prefer the stance of 'This is what you get, deal with it or go away.' I'll always listen to mature questions, but anyone who acts like a 10 year old while being in their 30's - 40's is a waste of my time, and any team I happen to be working with.

Or... it could just be a troll that wanted to upset people, wanted a small reason to post a bad Review... which if that's the case, I'd try the game myself just to respond to them.

[Orpheus]

What Zephyr said is exactly why I quit running a game. I still check in on the boards from time to time, in case I see a game worth devoting my limited amount of free time to, but running a game pretty much soured me on the whole MUD/MUSH/MOO, etc. experience.

People think that since they are taking time out of their day to play your game, you should cater to them. That was my experience in a nutshell, and what ultimately got me to abandon a project I had spent years of my life on. Granted, there were other factors - illnesses in the family, and such - but trying to please everyone who logged into my game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Players often fail to take into account that it is literally impossible to please every player all of time. They also fail to take into account that running a game can be exhausting, and devoting way too much time to doing so - which is what players tend to expect - can lead to staff resenting players. That never ends well.

In my case, if anyone cares, I was trying to change up a theme that - frankly - needed to be changed a little to keep things interesting. A couple of players (literally a couple) just wouldn't shut up about it, even though the change was relatively minor and designed to create conflict where conflict was needed. The most recent review of my game - rightfully so, I might add - pointed out that there was nothing to do but talk about the weather. I recognized that and sought to remedy that fact with a staff-run plot where people were free to draw their own conclusions. Boy, was that a mistake. I guess I should have left players to their tavern RP and MUDsex.

Anyways, I just could NOT stand the whining anymore from the 1 or 2 people who thought they had the right to dictate policy despite contributing nothing at all to the game.

If I have a point? The entitlement mentality of the players is just as toxic to our community as abusive immortals, and is probably the reason immortals often end up being jerks in the end, resulting in games failing. I had players flat out tell me they would ignore rules they didn't like, and if I didn't accept it, they'd leave. What was I supposed to do? Beg them to stay? That's certainly what they wanted...

[Zephyrwind]

I would have let them leave, there's the door, don't let it smack your ass on the way out. The good thing about hobby MU*s, is that you DON'T need a huge playerbase to keep your game running, and if word gets around that you don;t cave for Toxic players, in the end people might check out your game anyway.

When I run a game, for the small bit that I do run games anyway, my policy has always been that if you don't like it, you can leave, but I've also acted fairly and with a positive attitude towards the players.

People are going to complain over the smallest things, because it's more and more common that the just haven't been 'checked' in life.

[Hades_Kane]

Sounds similar to a player we had a couple of months ago... I ended up saving the log because I can smell a troll a mile away, and I suspected this person was just trying to get someone to blow up so they could leave a bad review or whine on the forums.  Nothing ever came of it, but this is what went down...

Note that "Sjorvi" and "Talluvian" are not immortals and I ("Diabtoo" in the log) was the only imm that PLAYER (named omitted) dealt with during their stay here.  Also, until I chimed in, this was all in my backlog, so I came in to deal with the situation once I wasn't AFK.

Sure, the conversation started with a misunderstanding (PLAYER was asking why the visual world map symbol was 'n' when the helpfile specified less variety in what may be used), but the player's attitude was clear pretty much from the outset.

And the bug/bugs that were being referenced I was unaware of until this (no one had reported them, and to my knowledge this was the first public mention of it), and I had them fixed 5 minutes after the player left.

[INFO] PLAYER has logged into End of Time.
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Narshe's entrance is: n'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'but it does not show that on the map as an entrance'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Entrance/Exit to Something    |   @  %  #   |'
[OOC] Sjorvi: 'Search around'
[OOC] Sjorvi: 'There may be something hidden.'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'It was the entrance to Narshe....'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'the newbie hometown?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'it's entrance is n'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Why?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'when it says Entrance/Exit to Something    |   @  %  #   |'
[OOC] Sjorvi: 'Because There may be a hidden button on a nearby wall.'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I mean I really don't mind it. I can see and look for it, but a blind player might have a lot of trouble if they see that the entrance is different than listed on Entrance/Exit to Something    |   @  %  #   |'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'there was no hidden button'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I just walked north'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'like normal...I am not sure what you are talking about'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'It is called Narshe for the third time'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'It is one of the homecity's you start in....I have no idea why you are mentioning a hidden button for Narshe. Let's stay on Narshe please'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'and not talk about anywhere else'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I'm done talking, you clearly are not listening '
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I'll wait for Diablos'
[OOC] Talluvian: 'It's great that you say that, but you also don't give any indication of the area you're talking about besides 'Narshe''
[OOC] Talluvian: 'Like.. where, in Narshe? What part of town?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'The MAIN ENTRANCE like it shows on the world map'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I said the first time'
[OOC] Talluvian: 'South of the Coal Mines Town Narshe.'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Plus I am new, so I am going to only give information that I know of...spurting out this and that about hidden buttons so casually as if I should just know this, is not appropriate at all., Instead, he could have asked where exactly in Narshe, which entrance do you mean>? etc'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'but no'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'So yes I am a little annoyed, that he halfheartedly paid attention and just gave whatever for a response'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I would have rather him just not said anything'
PLAYER got toasted by an Imperial Guard at The Imperial Barracks [room 2036]
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Umm....heal revive never did get fixed either....Umm, Is there anyway that I can know if bugs are fixed or whatnot? I just wasted another 500 gil'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I guess it is a really difficult bug'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Heal fatigue also says it costs 0 gil, fatigue:    removes death fatigue       0 Gil'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'but when I heal fatigue I get this typo bug instead : PLAYER Coffins says 'You do not have enough Gil for my services.''
[OOC] Aleksei: 'That is.. odd.'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'That is beyond odd, actually'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'My morning has been nothing but bugs and imms who want to hide behind who and be jerks! What's next this morning?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'with 0% help at all'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'Well, it is monday morning and almost everyone works.'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'Other than that, though, that's one bug I have no idea how to deal with: I've actually never used Heal Fatigue - not because I don't die, but because.. I tend to forget it exists'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'on top of that, I have no choices for a clan really, as the one I was hoping to join does not even care (ICly) about their own region/kingdom. Not sure what else to say'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Also, when I am dead, as in a ghost, it shows my relics still being worn, but once I find my corpse and get all...my relics are removed and placed into my inventory'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'Oh, that's normal'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I don't even know how to report bugs, read mail, check the news or anything'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Anyhow'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'That's to prevent relics from being ditched, since dropped relics fade to dust.'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'As for news, the command is 'board' to see unread notes of various types'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'Each section is read with its own command. Note to read notes, ideas for ideas, and so on'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Thanks'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'Mail is the 'personal' section of the board'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'And to report bugs, the command is just 'bug' followed by the string you want sent in. Help bug probably explains it better than I right now'
[OOC] Aleksei: 'Lack of coffee and rushing to work makes me hasty'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I might be back, but I am not entirely sure....The game is nice if you play solo and just ignore the bugs, but the lack of choices when it comes to a clan, isn't very appealing, along with the 2 jerk imms that were on earlier...which I am sure they are still here, just hiding since I got upset. I'm going though...Take care'
[INFO] PLAYER has signed out.

[INFO] PLAYER has logged into End of Time.
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Is there a way to create a clan? I looked at the help files, but it does not say how to start one of your own.'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'What jerk imms?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Don't worry about it. I'm more concerned with starting a clan. I do not like the choices of clans they have as is. I rp as a mutant from Midgard (Sector 7) But hinra does not care about their own region, only gil. I have already spoken to the president of Shinra and we both agreed it is not for me. But my character loves the citizens of Midgard and has hopes of helping to bring the region back up from its poverty state and to also be against Shinra as a resistance factor.'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'There's no official process for creating a clan at this time, generally what we've told people is to work on establishing their roleplay and gathering others to their cause, and after they've managed to work up a good basis, have a small, dedicated group, and provided the group doesn't clash or overlap with anything that's already established, then we will evaluate'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I am not sure how to understand this, but what group? Take a look at Guardia for example. Victoria has been afk for 4 days now ((Probably longer, but I just started 4 days ago))'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'there's 1 example'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'the other clans are nonexistent or just have not played in 4 days at all'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I mean, how am I going to recruit that which does not exist? It just seems hopeless to me or for anyone who wishes to rp as a Midgard citizen or anything from that region'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I made a mistake for choosing this race'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Now I am paying for it'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'All because the players of Shinra wish to go against ff lore and be all about the gil...As I recall in ff7, Shinra did care about their citizens as well'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'The citizens they kept in poverty and in shacks under a rich upper level that they without any concern or care dropped and crushed an entire sector killing everyone in it?'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'and most assuredly killing everyone on the upper plate that was there as well?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Like I said, they had an upper sector'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'All places have a slums, even America'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Anyhow'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'I'm going to be frank with you, if you are looking for a vibrant, active game, this isn't the one for you.  We have a very small playerbase with only a very few handful of people that are on every day or on for long stretches of time.  The activity you've seen the last few days?  That's been uncharacteristically busy for how things have been for the last several months.'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'that's my point'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'So why do I need to  recruit more people?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'just let me start my clan and rp '
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Can we do that? I assure you, I can recruit in time'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'If you want to create a clan?  What's the point in creating a brand new clan to only further water down what is there instead of promotiong and trying to concencrate the playerbase toward what is there?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'But I cannot just snap my fingers and have people right now'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Ask Shinra that'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Ask them why they turn down their own kind?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Ask them that'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Ask then why they say no to me when I am from Sector 7.'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Why can't they say yes and "rehabilitate me"'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'anything is better than nothing at this point'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'Didn't you just tell me that you both agreed it wasn't for you?  You just indicated to me that you weren't shut out, you indicated to me neither of you felt the clan was right, so I'm not understanding what your concern with that is.'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I told him that because my cards were already dealt and I lost'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I did not have a choice but to say that'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'It was the nice thing to do'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I had hopes of joining Shinra'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'not any other clan'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I would have made another race if so'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Do I need to feel like everyone is against me here? Or can we at least have some common grounds of some understanding? Take it from my view...PLAYER is a citizen of Sector 7. She is tried of the bullcrap that Shinra is giving them...Lying to them, telling them they will bring guards to help protect them only to laugh and lie to them'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I mean, someone has to stand up right? It'll make for some interesting rp'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'From an in-character perspective, I'm sure that many of the mundane Shin-Ra employees may think that what they do is somehow in the greater good or best interest, but from a non-mundane standpoint, generally the roles that the players themselves will fill, Shin-Ra is an evil corporate that is only concerned with profit... the entire concept behind the company is that they rip the very life force from the planet to generate electricity all in the name of making money... If you are looking to play an altruistic, good aligned character that is seeking to do good by his fellow man and citizens... Shin-Ra isn't really the right place'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'The character as you describe it sounds much more like Avalanche'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'The presidant of Shinra said they are not evil or even considered evil, they just want profit'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Aleksei and I spoke. You might wish to speak with him'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'seems like you are out of the current loop'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'If you were speaking to Aleksei in character?  Then surely that is what he would say... no one generally considers themselves "evil", but from an objective, OOC standpoint, yes they are evil'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I am not a good aliegned character'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'my character is actually evil'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Another thing I brought up to Shrina'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Shinra'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'then he told me "we're not evil"'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'So anything I told him, he responded to...we are not that'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'we dont do that'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'we just care about money'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'That's not really evil, that's retarded'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I mean, you are evil if you only care about money'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'Saying otherwise is silly'
[OOC] Diabtoo: 'Yes, because "evil" doesn't recognize itself as such... if you speak to him from an OOC standpoint, you'll get a better idea as a player behind the character what Shin-Ra is about, but speaking as your character to another character in the game, you are going to get spin, and manipulation, and all the things that an evil character puts out there when dealing with others'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'But I see we're just going to keep arguing until I either quit playing or join a clan I don't want to join'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'we spoke oocly'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'You like to assume don't you?'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'I'm done wasting my time here. Good luck'
[INFO] PLAYER has signed out.
[INFO] PLAYER has logged into End of Time.
[OOC] PLAYER: 'and fix your bugs'
[OOC] PLAYER: 'heal revive still doesnt freaking work! I wasted thousands of gil'
[INFO] PLAYER has signed out.

Like others have said, sometimes you just need to invite a player to find the door.

[Ateraan]

Holy cow Hades, that was a long snippet, but yes, it seems you too have enjoyed some wonderful new players. 

[Jodah]

Funny log Hades but did you really take the time to omit the names?  It's some random dude's name on the internet, no one will care with the names

[Orpheus]

I can understand why he did so. I was criticized more than once for talking about situations regarding my game, as it can be relatively easy to ascertain who plays who based on grammar, talking points, etc.

[desharei]

Funny log Hades but did you really take the time to omit the names?  It's some random dude's name on the internet, no one will care with the names

It doesn't take any time at all. Just go to your text editor, do a "search/replace," plug the player's name in the first box, and the word PLAYER in all caps in the second box. Hit the "replace all" button, and voila. It's all done. Less than 30 seconds.