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Author Topic: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player  (Read 6842 times)

Hades_Kane

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2016, 3:47 PM »
We show numbers, so I have no dog in the fight, really.

I've seen players spend weeks data collecting/crunching to best min/max their characters, so I have no doubt that a handful will spend a long, long time doing so in testing weapons.

I guess the overall question is more of a matter of does one make design choices to offset or take into account a small minority of players that will use every tool available to gain an advantage over others that lack the skill or tools available.

That said, though, if a game were to hide their numbers (and even if said numbers are shown), I would argue that same game should also have the majority of weapons able to be identified, on sight (or with an 'examine') how it generally compares to another weapon of the same weapon class.  Case in point, establish whether a bronze sword is better than an iron sword, and keep that consistent across your game.  I've been on way too many games where material and other similar descriptive nature of a blade is super inconsistent.  I've ran across iron and probably even wooden swords that did more damage than a mythril or titanium sword, and it wasn't that the iron or wooden swords were exceptional, they were mundane in every other manner aside from just being higher level.

Then you just have the special or quest weapons being matter of "is one better than the other."
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Ateraan

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2016, 4:15 PM »
And yet, if you hide the numbers, all you're doing is forcing the player to use trial and error to decide what weapon is better.
There are relics and guilds that specialize in identifying how good a weapon or armor is. It is done through skills, abilities, and roleplay.
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Ateraan

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 4:16 PM »
Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but surely there is SOME measure (even if its just descriptive) that illustrates the relative damage of a weapon?
Our system does have multiple levels of descriptive metrics damage based on how hard a weapon hits (eg. lightly, heavily, etc).
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darksix

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 4:21 AM »
I'd have to agree with Quix and Hades on this one, especially Quix about being open in every way, especially with PK being involved, and even PvE.  Might as well give them all the info their hearts desire right out of the gate, it's also a good way to gauge how each class/race is doing and what is right and what is just totally overpowered.  Just looking at people fighting each other or mobs and such, it gives a coder a good understanding of where correction may be needed.  I run a GodWars originally based mud and I try to make it as robust as possible with data from attacks/misses or getting hit and display that info if they want.  Even with brief5 on which pretty much kills all battle spam with just an outcome it has total damage done with how many attacks and average damage from each hit from yourself to your pets damage.  All weapons and armor can be identified and have exact numbers of what they all are capable of or have on them.

Code: [Select]
You lick -=Plague 2.0=- CXXXX|============> ever so softly to get a taste if it's good enough for you.
Object 'Plague 2.0' is of type weapon, extra flags invis anti-good loyal nolocate.
Weight is 1, value is 50000000.
This object was created by Darksix, and is owned by Darksix.
This item is forged with neutronium.
Weapon is of type pierce.
Damage is 3771 to 4591 (average 4181).
-=plague 2.0=- cxxxx|============> is a shitty spell weapon.
This weapon radiates an aura of darkness.
This razor sharp weapon can slice through armor without difficulty.
Affects hit roll by 5000.
Affects damage roll by 5000.
Affects armor class by -5000.
Affects save vs breath by -100.
Affects save vs spell by -100.
Affects hit roll by 192.
Affects damage roll by 192.

That is an immortal only weapon but still has the values :)

and brief combat goes as follows from an imm's perspective.
Code: [Select]
You've dealt 229 attacks causing 27,000,000 damage. (117,903 average)
You've killed 25 things and gained a total of 124,887,500 exp
You've gained a total of 14,550 class points
You've gained a total of 29,773 bones
Your pet did 4 attacks causing 17,516 damage. (8,758 average)
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Sevrior

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2017, 9:28 AM »
Two notes here:

Firstly, I think the argument that showing numerical data takes away from the realism of mud combat is idealistic at best. Let's be real here, the old cliche that a mud is a storybook is true only when it comes to creatively written room descs, quests and so on. Mud combat does not, and probably never will, read like a book. If I opened up a fantasy novel and the fight scenes were: "You brutally slash the orc! You bash the orc, sending him to the ground. You lightly scratch the orc. The orc misses you," I would not stick with it long. Mud combat is a numbers game, just as combat in any game is, and trying to promote it's realism through pretty text just isn't likely. There are a very, very few muds that do it, and those tend to be manual combat muds that were specifically built around that same combat system. If you have any vestiges of the original "kill mob" code in your mud, trust me, realism isn't part of the discussion.

Secondly, specifically to those manual combat muds, or pk heavy muds in general, you'll find that this is where numbers pretty much have to be shown. I can't imagine godwars2, or the old Konquest mud, or assault or any other number of pure pk muds functioning without numbers. That is because you need the data in order to respond effectively and quickly, and due to the fact that players are not going to give you the luxury of experimenting. And even if they do, experimenting should be fficient and to the point. It's much simpler to test out a sword and realize it isn't doing damage, so you go rebuild, than it is to test out a sword and ponder the ambiguous language chosen by the mud's dev.
So, where pk and competition counts, numbers will be crucial. If you don't care much about combat, or try to minimize it in your mud, then perhaps not. But let me ask this: would this conversation make sense if we changed combat to crafting? WOuld anyone really support the idea that, instead of being told you have 10 pounds of iron and you need 5 pounds to make a sword, you were instead told you have a chunk of iron and need a brick, two bars and a pebble? Sure, you can add those descriptors later on, but if you don't have information regarding what quantities are available, or what makes a brick, a bar and a pebble, you'll be doing a lot of really irritating experimentation.

darksix

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 7:35 PM »
Quote
But let me ask this: would this conversation make sense if we changed combat to crafting? WOuld anyone really support the idea that, instead of being told you have 10 pounds of iron and you need 5 pounds to make a sword, you were instead told you have a chunk of iron and need a brick, two bars and a pebble? Sure, you can add those descriptors later on, but if you don't have information regarding what quantities are available, or what makes a brick, a bar and a pebble, you'll be doing a lot of really irritating experimentation.

Think that's a pretty good argument there and I'd agree.  Far as pk'ing and combat goes, people don't give you time to experiment, be dead before you got to test mostly, but normal combat just seems more fun when you are racking up damage.  Has anyone seen an rpg like final fantasy or any new ones without showing what damage taken/done?
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Ateraan

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2017, 12:24 AM »
Think that's a pretty good argument there and I'd agree.  Far as pk'ing and combat goes, people don't give you time to experiment, be dead before you got to test mostly, but normal combat just seems more fun when you are racking up damage.  Has anyone seen an rpg like final fantasy or any new ones without showing what damage taken/done?
Damage is always going to be shown in one way or another. How it is shown is based entirely on the game and modified by player preference accordingly.
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Jodah

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2017, 3:26 PM »
I'm a player that loves numbers.  Muds are very number-ish, more so than mmorpgs.  I can't think of any MMORPGS that hide damage data either.  I don't see the harm in showing a damage number, I usually skip games that make it a mystery.

Ateraan

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2017, 2:39 PM »
I'm a player that loves numbers.  Muds are very number-ish, more so than mmorpgs.  I can't think of any MMORPGS that hide damage data either.  I don't see the harm in showing a damage number, I usually skip games that make it a mystery.
Oh come on Jodah, you really need to see: Your elf did 11 points of damage to the orc?

I think that if you have an hp indicator you can derive damage indicators. I just think a spam of 11 points here, 2 points there, is less immersive depending on how the game you like does this.
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Jodah

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2017, 5:54 AM »
Is combat supposed to be immersive?  Basically it's two people taking turns whacking each other.  And yes, I don't see any point in obscuring the data.  I can deduce the damage from the weapon stats though.  Although hiding weapon stats and damage?  Color me gone.

Can anyone list a mmorpg game that doesn't show combat numbers?  There's a reason.  I'd argue it makes it more interactive.

Epilogy

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2017, 6:34 PM »
The number spam can be a bit much on some muds... but removing the numbers and leaving the strings would be just as silly. Project BOB had a cool thing going where it would summarize your round damage in a single line.

Ateraan

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2017, 8:36 PM »
Is combat supposed to be immersive?  Basically it's two people taking turns whacking each other.  And yes, I don't see any point in obscuring the data.  I can deduce the damage from the weapon stats though.  Although hiding weapon stats and damage?  Color me gone.

Can anyone list a mmorpg game that doesn't show combat numbers?  There's a reason.  I'd argue it makes it more interactive.
It's fine in hack and slash. Why not just have all armor be named Armor. And list a number after it for its defensive strength. EG: Armor 5, Armor 2, Armor 18, etc. Why don't you do that? Because that is lame and only fun if all your players are all accountants.
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thaabit

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2017, 10:31 PM »
And yet, if you hide the numbers, all you're doing is forcing the player to use trial and error to decide what weapon is better.

Many of our players also use the 'force' to describe what they have to do. And as an aministrator I am realizing that it's very important to listen, when they use this word. Because what they are saying is that they play the game, despite this disliked aspect. But surely there are others who would not be 'forced' and just not play. So in a case like this where we lose nothing by showing the numbers, but potentially lose players for not, then the sensible thing seems to be to concede such things.

Epilogy

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2017, 10:49 PM »
It's fine in hack and slash. Why not just have all armor be named Armor. And list a number after it for its defensive strength. EG: Armor 5, Armor 2, Armor 18, etc. Why don't you do that? Because that is lame and only fun if all your players are all accountants.

The ability to do simple addition is beyond the grasp of your players? I guess you've never seen the spreadsheets they use for stat weights in MMOs lol

Quixadhal

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Re: Intentionally obscurring damage data to the player
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2017, 12:53 AM »
You guys are missing the point on the whole numbers thing.

Let's take two pieces of armor.  Here are their stats, so you can see the numbers used.

Chain Mail:
  Slashing: 5
  Piercing: -5
  Crushing: 10
  Heat: -5
  Lightning: -10
  Acid: 0

Leather:
  Slashing: 5
  Piercing: 5
  Crushing: 5
  Heat: 5
  Lightning: 10
  Acid: 2

Higher numbers are good, negative numbers amplify those damage types.

So, the player is wearing chain mail and picks up the leather armor.  If they get to see the numbers, they can make a judgement call and decide what kinds of things they'll be fighting soon, and thus which armor is going to be more helpful to them.

If you don't show them numbers, then they make the assumption that chain mail is better than leather because it sounds cooler.  Then they get into a fight with some brigands.  Their enemy is armed with daggers and a mix of rapiers and scimitars (piercing and slashing).  They get beat up and decide to try on the leather.  They fight some more of them and it seems like they're doing a little better.

So, having no numbers to see what's happening, they make the assumption that the leather armor must be magical, or of superior quality and sell or drop the chain mail.  Later, they run into an ogre using a club, and get beaten up pretty badly.. this is confusing, since the last ogre they fought didn't hit very hard at all.

If only they could have seen the extra 5 Damage Reduction vs. Crushing that the chain mail had, maybe they would have kept it.

Add in a dozen other armor types and a dozen weapons with similar stats, and you see how it gets a bit tricky to try and work it out by anecdotal evidence.