The MUD Connector

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flint Stovetop on May 11, 2018, 2:08 AM

Title: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 11, 2018, 2:08 AM
Over the years I have tried and played several muds, yet I would still call myself new to them.  I still can not wrap my head around somethings though.  For one thing is the rent system. What purpose does it serve besides to be inconvenient to the players?  I can see it's use in realistic settings, where "sleeping" outside could get you killed.  Yet in Sindome if you do not pay the rent daily or weekly, you will be kicked out of your room and lose all of your equipment, either automatically, by an admin or by fellow players.  Even just missing to pay one day's rent or a week's and you can wake up the next time cold, hungry and totally naked.  And naked people are strewn across the floor in heaps as you walk by.  That really is not realistic.

So why do games have rent as part of their game play?  Does saving anywhere cost more to create or keep as a server?  Is it hard coded into the type of mud code base they use?  Are developers really just sadists?  Not everyone has time to walk around looking for an inn just to save properly.  Others have bad connections or play mobile where the app keeps shutting down at inoppertune times.

Also why are there so many different port numbers?  I understand the address having to be unique, but why the port number?  Several muds even use the same one like 5555, but others go out of their way to be hard to remember or guess, like 8768 or some other one.  Why not keep it simple?  If you are actively advertising your mud and looking for new players why make an odd port number?

Finally why do muds have you choose a name BEFORE actually being able to create your character?  If anything it should be the very last thing you do.  You spend time trying to think up a good and unique name for a Dwarf and after several attempts of either the game simply not accepting it or it is already taken by another player, you come to find out half way through the character process that you no longer want to be a dwarf.  Either you found a cooler race that you did not know about until you got to that part or you found out that the dwarves in this game are severally limited or held back in some way.  But the character name you chose as your very first step wont sound good for a lizardman, a human or a Minotaur.  Now what?

I spend sometimes up to an hour or more trying to make my character each time I try a new mud.  And finding things I do not like AFTER or even DURING the character creation process is quite disheartening.

I looked up the search a mud function and I saw the option for Equipment Saved under Features.  Does that mean they do not use rent?  Or that they do, but if you save properly at an inn your equipment is saved?  I may add to this later.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Darkozx on May 11, 2018, 3:20 AM
This thread will explain some about rent for you.

http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=81277.msg215810#msg215810

Simple summary, MUDs use it because that's just how their game is. Besides that, most active MUDs do not use rent.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: nullscan on May 11, 2018, 3:41 AM
I still can not wrap my head around somethings though.  For one thing is the rent system. What purpose does it serve besides to be inconvenient to the players?

So why do games have rent as part of their game play?  Does saving anywhere cost more to create or keep as a server?  Is it hard coded into the type of mud code base they use?  Are developers really just sadists?  Not everyone has time to walk around looking for an inn just to save properly.  Others have bad connections or play mobile where the app keeps shutting down at inoppertune times.

Keeping in mind that MUD was first written by people at universities in the late 1980s and when a program runs on a computer it must be fully loaded into Memory:  RAM memory was running around USD $150.00 per megabyte in 1996 and most computers had 4 or 8MB limits on how much RAM you could install in the first place clear back around 1990.  Hard drives of the time were something like 50MB and that was a $1200 device. 

So allowing game saving from anywhere would require the save-file to store a hell of a lot of extraneous storage information and pre/post-save processing.  What location were you in, is the average mob level higher or lower than you, should we try to clean up mobs in the area when the player logs in so they don't just get killed if they wandered into a high-level area/lostconnection/reconnected, and if we do then how would it affect other players in that area on reconnect if the mobs they're fighting just up and vanish like a fart in the wind?

I really don't understand about charging 'rent' myself, but these are the reasons why you can't just save anywhere.  It's not like a single-player game where you can dump the entire game state and reload it when the user wants to run the program.  It's an always-on multi-player scenario with a constantly changing environment - not just because players wander but because mobs wander too.  Dumping all your kit and gear is pretty lame, but bouncing you back to the nearest "safe area" and making those safe areas be referenceable by some simple 4-byte ID value rather than storing things like Zone Name (a variable length string) + Zone Coordinates (typically just X,Y so 2 or 4 bytes per coordinate) + running checks on login to see if you're going to get massacred before you actually start playing... is just plain common sense.

On the topic of 'rent-like' features in games, it was extremely common in the early days of network services to impose some kind of limit on how much (not just what in terms of privileges) end-users could do.  Sometimes it would be expressed as a real time limit per day or week.  Sometimes it would be expressed in some form of "payday" where players receive a certain amount of tokens per time period and computationally expensive commands such as a database search cost a whole lot more (and could literally lag the game for everyone else while the command runs) than simple but HD-space consuming commands like building a room and/or an exit.  I don't really think the concept of having to have game-currency to perform a character save has anything to do with this, but I suspect it's something like the inspiration behind it.

Also why are there so many different port numbers?  I understand the address having to be unique, but why the port number?  Several muds even use the same one like 5555, but others go out of their way to be hard to remember or guess, like 8768 or some other one.  Why not keep it simple?  If you are actively advertising your mud and looking for new players why make an odd port number?

The Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) allows for a unique IP Address and Port Number to create an ultra-unique address (unique beyond the uniqueness of the IP Address) within an individual local machine.  By ensuring that HTTP runs on one port and FTP runs on another and HTTPS on another, you're able to run a bunch of network services on one IP Address without having to examine the sub-protocol in play to identify it every time a data packet is received which, back in the day, would literally take a minute or more.  TCP allows a 16-bit (2-byte) unsigned integer value, providing up to 65536 unique port numbers (which are actually 0-65535).  Then many, MANY port numbers are standardized for particular network services.

Look up the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) online.  They have a listing of the standard port numbers for things like FTP, SSH, HTTP, HTTPS, POP3, SMTP, IMAP, etc etc etc (keep typing etc ad infinitum).  The first 1024 are reserved for D/ARPA-defined protocols then several thousand more are eaten up by well-known and widely used Operating System and other network services, such as MySQL (which likes to run on 3306 or 3309).  Then another few thousand are eaten up by common online game servers like Half Life, Killing Floor and etc, where each game manufacturer typically has a favored default port (or port range) for all their shiz-fu. 

Then for the longest time MUD hosts very typically hosted a dozen games on any given box (where the MUD host isn't necessarily a MUD admin or even a player on any of the MUDs they host - they're just a box/bandwidth provider) - so even though every MU platform has some default port number assigned by the developers, it was for decades absolutely necessary for each individual game owner to pick their favorite port for their game.  Many will pick a port number that's somehow emblematic of their game, like a game set in 1692 using port number 1692, and hope that port number doesn't conflict with other games or services running on the same box at the same time.

Finally why do muds have you choose a name BEFORE actually being able to create your character?  If anything it should be the very last thing you do.  You spend time trying to think up a good and unique name for a Dwarf and after several attempts of either the game simply not accepting it or it is already taken by another player, you come to find out half way through the character process that you no longer want to be a dwarf.

Why you have to pick a name at creation is simple - it's login credentials.  You have to create login credentials before you can log in. 

Why has nobody ever given an option to change the name later on?  This one beats the hell outta me, and it's one reason I'm not a fan of MUDs. 

A very early version of MUSH (I have no clue which or when) 'fixed' this by adding a command that allows you to change your name after creation.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Hades_Kane on May 11, 2018, 11:52 AM
The short(ish) answers are...

With rent... when MUDs were invented, computer and network resources were scarce, and rent was a means to encourage players to only keep/carry what was necessary, and to free up resources by nuking the inventories of players who didn't play frequently.  As far as why people still use it?  A few different reasons... 1) Tradition, 2) Lack of ability to change it, 3) Sadism, 4) Money / economic sink...  I think most people agree that rent and rent-like systems are garbage, though.

On port numbers... especially with the popularity of MUD hosting services, even if some MUDs may have different domains you connect through, many MUDs will have the same IP and the port will be what distinguished one MUD on the same server from another.  For example, you can connect to End of Time through eotmud.com and I also host Cleft of Dimension on my VPS at cleftofdimension.com... EoT uses port 4000, CoD uses port 9000.  That's likely a big reason why there are so many different port numbers.  As far as why someone might have 8530?  The server/host might have already assigned 8000 - 8529 and chooses to assign them in sequential order... some might assign them randomly... essentially, many MUDs may not have any sort of choice in the matter.  Who knows with the rest of them?  Maybe they just like the number

With names, like nullscan said, its login credentials.  Just about anywhere that you create an account, a username of some sort is the first step.  But yeah, I can see an argument being made for name selection coming last, or an option to change it during/after creation.  In fact, I'm going to modify our character creation to allow for that, and probably allow for it up to level 15.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Epilogy on May 11, 2018, 12:01 PM
Chiming in that many muds that have account systems will use the account name for credentials, and open a small menu with character options. One of the things that could have been done better overall if it had been widely adopted.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: RahjIII on May 11, 2018, 12:41 PM
For one thing is the rent system. What purpose does it serve besides to be inconvenient to the players?
[...]
So why do games have rent as part of their game play?  Does saving anywhere cost more to create or keep as a server?  Is it hard coded into the type of mud code base they use? 

A lot of mud codebases that are still in use today were developed in the early 1990's, a time when computers were slow, and data storage wasn't as cheap and plentiful as it is today.   It was simply too expensive to keep save data for characters who were no longer playing the game, and rent was a way to automatically cull out the non-players.  Computers sped up, and storage got large enough that it became trivial to keep the data for ever, but the code was already in place and rent had become an accepted tradition, so its still there in some games today.

The change in computer speed and storage size between 1990 and today is orders of magnitude greater, and that makes it hard to appreciate.    In 1991/1992 when we first started working on The Last Outpost, the game ran on a shared departmental server with a 25Mhz processor, 8MB of memory, and 400MB hard drive on which we had a 10MB quota enforcement.  That was typical for the time.  Today it runs on a server with a 1.8Ghz processor, 8GB of memory, and a 1TB drive, no space quota.   

Today, our game has roughly 100000 times as much storage space available to it as it did in 1992. 

So what does that mean in today's terms?  An original DikuMud style player save record weighed in at about 1 Kilobyte.  In "today's bytes" on our current server, a file of that weight would be close to (1KB*100000) = 100 Megabytes.  That's per player.  Store a few thousand player records, and you are looking at a few hundred Gigabytes of player storage in "today's bytes" that has to get backed up every night.  Its not unmanageable, but its not small either. 

Hope that helps answer your question!

Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Hades_Kane on May 11, 2018, 12:50 PM
That got me curious...

Our largest pfile is 42kb... The next 16 largest pfiles go from 20k - 38k
169 pfiles go from 10k - 20k

We have 2889 pfiles totaling 15,645kb.

I actually expected them to be much larger, considering how much "bloat" we technically have in the pfiles, from having NO object compression/compiling code (I have on my list to adapt something from Smaug for that), and the numerous quest "variables" that save on players.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: RahjIII on May 11, 2018, 1:20 PM
We have 2889 pfiles totaling 15,645kb.

Yeah, LO's got about 1500 player records at about 19KB apiece.  Human readable UTF-8 now instead of binary, and we don't bother to compress anything.  It sure is nice to be able to store whatever you want, whenever you want to store it!   
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: desharei on May 11, 2018, 7:10 PM
Regarding names:

You have to make a name for your *account* so that the game/staff and you can communicate with each other on a real-world basis. For instance if you forget your password and need to have it reset - the communication won't be relayed to your character in-game, it'll be relayed to you, personally, the actual human with access to your e-mail account.

Secondly, some games allow you to have more than one character at a time. Why would you name your three characters the same name? And how would the game know which one to communicate with, if your account name is the same as your character names?

Thirdly, some games are permadeath, and when your first character dies, you have to make a new one. Different race, skillset, starting location, whatever else, why would you have 50 Amoses in the span of 6 years of playing the game? What if you want one of them to be named Sandra? What if you want one to be named George? Rather than make new accounts for each character, you have one account - and make new characters as needed.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 11, 2018, 11:13 PM
Thank you all for your swift, informative and cordial replies.  However I did find one game called GNS that, although it asked in the beginning, actually allowed you to change the name again at the very end of character creation.  But out of the dozens I have played it is the only one I know of.

I kind of figured that was the reason when it was back in the day, although I did not know it was "that" bad, but it is 2018 and some of these muds are constantly being updated or were updated as recently as a few years ago, and some brag of completely new coding, but still use the blasted rent system.

I suppose I should not complain though, since I have not spent or donated a single cent to any mud.  However I have also not found one that I truly felt comfortable with...

Does the search function of Saved Equipment in the Features section automatically mean "no rent" or something else entirely?  When I type "no rent" in the search bar it self, I only get about six games...

I guess I will just keep searching for a game that is either perfect or at least holds most of what I need.  I found one game enjoyable until I realised they did not use short cuts and I had to keep typing "kill abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz".

The last reply about names directly before this one, I am not totally sure what you mean.  If you make a new character you have to make a new account as far as I am aware of.  Only a few games even require an email, a few more may just ask for it.  Then again I have never stayed with a game long enough to make a second character and if I did I just did it as I did the first, from scratch.  There was no connection between characters.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: desharei on May 12, 2018, 12:35 AM
Regarding names: It depends on the type of game you're playing I suppose. Some games allow and provide for multiple character "slots" on accounts. So you log in with your account, and then select which character you want to play out of those still alive on your list.

In permanent death games that I'm aware of, there's no need to make a whole new account, because your pfile's character info is archived when your character dies and you simply log back in and make a new character on the existing - but now blank - account.

As for rent - the "saves equipment on exit" means anything in your inventory is still there when you log back in.  Rent means different things in different types of games.  If by rent you mean "when I log out and log back in all my stuff is gone and I have to get new stuff, unless I rent space somewhere" - then "saves equipment on exit" is what you're looking for.

Other instances of rent involve roleplaying - if you want your character to have an actual place to live, maybe entertain guests, do secret illegal things, get jiggy with the neighbor's daughter, or just get away from everyone to craft a bunch of stuff without being distracted - some games provide apartment or house rentals and purchases for characters. It's a coded support of an in-character in-game interest. In most cases these types of homes also provide a place to store things so if you have more than you can carry, you can put them in a box in your character's living room.

And still other games offer rent in the form of limited item storage rental. Gemstone had that, where you could rent space in the bank for stuff that you couldn't carry. But anything you could carry - "saved on exit" and would still be in your inventory or worn on your character's body when you logged back in.



Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2018, 3:55 AM
Does the search function of Saved Equipment in the Features section automatically mean "no rent" or something else entirely?  When I type "no rent" in the search bar it self, I only get about six games...

Regrettably that particular search function doesn't seem to work. I don't even think there is a box to tick for "no rent", when you create the info about your game. So how those six games came on the search list for "no rent" is a mystery to me. I don't even recognise the name of any of them.

Actually I believe the vast majority of muds are all "no rent"; as someone explained, rent was an archaic way of saving memory in the early days of muds, when memory was a big factor.

The same thing goes for the name question. As far as I know, most muds allow you to create as many simultaneous characters that you like, although some, (including my own) only allows you to keep one of them on line at the same time. Most players in my own game have several different characters, (mostly I believe to switch between different classes, to get access to some of the more unique class skills).

Perhaps you have mostly tried Role Play enforced muds, or RPIs? I think if you checked some games that are only role play encouraged, or more hack'n'slash type, you would find that the policies in those are very different. It's all a matter of gameplay taste, and there are surely muds to cater for most tastes.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 12, 2018, 2:38 PM
I assume those six games came up because they had somewhere in their description "no rent". But I would also assume that other games either have it, but do not blatantly mention it, or do actually speak of it as well, but for what ever reason simply do not show up.

Actually I try to stay away from Role Play Enforced (RPE's or RPI's?) unless it has overwhelming things I like. And I can not even begin to tell you all the games I have tried altogether or even recently, I am not good with names and some seem so similar to others...  But basically anything Dragonlance and Dungeons and Dragons recently.  Before that it was Sindome, Armageddon, other D&Ds possibly Water Deep, a Lord of the Rings here or there, Winter Oasis, yatta yatta yatta...

My perfect game would be obviously no rent, abbreviations especially for combat, great room descriptions along with decent room item descriptions, many characters and classes not too far off the beaten track with a level system, maps that unless you are in an enchanted forest maze- you go out the way you came, non PK or at least the option and I prefer weapons and equipment to have good descriptors and me not having to guess at the description which one is better, preferably not hampered by hunger and thirst till you are weak, frail and die and no permadeath.  ANSI color is a nice bonus as well as a map system of some kind.  Is that too much to ask or hope for.  It's why I wake up and get out of bed in the morning in my long journey to salvation and why everytime I chuck my phone against the wall in frustration...
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Epilogy on May 12, 2018, 3:41 PM
Actually I believe the vast majority of muds are all "no rent"

This is true in my experience among ROM, circle, and SMAUG muds.

Also, TMC's listings search is not good. You could try and search a one-word named mud, and see it halfway down a list of other things that have no apparent bearing on your current search.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 14, 2018, 1:49 AM
Why do some games work with the website name followed by the port number, while others fail to connect and you have to use the numbers in brackets with "." spacings?
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: nullscan on May 14, 2018, 5:46 AM
Why do some games work with the website name followed by the port number, while others fail to connect and you have to use the numbers in brackets with "." spacings?

It depends on a lot of factors, but it has everything to do with:

Domain Name System (DNS) servers are a giant, conspiratory lie that governments and techies and all people who host content on the internet are involved in.  Yes, TMC is part of the conspiracy.  So is AT&T, and whatever your ISP is.  So am I.  And Darkozx.  And... YOU!!!

The lie is that a domain name (such as mudconnect.com) is a thing you can use to connect to services.  It isn't.

The only thing you can actually connect to services with, via Internet Protocol (IP), either v4 or v6, is the standardized IP Address.  This address is for instance 192.168.0.1 (a common LAN IP address assigned as the default in many off-the-shelf router devices).  It's like a phone number.  All us liars conspire with government agencies called Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) to obtain IP Addresses.  In North America, it's ARIN.  In Europe and northeast Asia it's RIPE NCC.  In Africa it's AFRINIC.  There are 5 of these in total, all conspiring together to ensure that IP Addresses are unique and everybody knows what IP Address should route to where.

Domain names come into the picture with other government and private/commercial agencies called Domain Registrars, all of whom conspire with agencies called InterNIC and ICANN... who cross-conspire with the RIRs in this global collusion to make your life easier.  The registrars all report domain name registrations to a central authority, the RIRs do too, and those central authorities conspire with each other - the end result is that all IP Addresses are totally unique and all Domain Names are too.

So the DNS Server enters the picture where you register a domain name and tell the registrar where to route DNS requests.  DNS servers map domain names to IP Addresses, and your computer sends out these requests in the background so you don't have to worry about it.  It's like always dialing 411 and ignoring the operator when they read you the phone number, just waiting for them to connect the call for you.  A good registrar will provide DNS services for you, but many of the cheap ones don't.

So several scenarios:

A)  Somebody's running their MU and website on the ultra-cheap.  They host their own MU, webserver, and DNS server on the same box on plain old residential-grade internet in their basement.  Their DNS Server is constantly being pinged by other DNS Servers, by web services users, etc.  They're running on an older box - say single-core CPU with low RAM memory (lots of memory to disk and back again paging operations).  This is pure-dee amateur hour.  Probably 1 out of every 3 DNS requests is completely dropped due to a timeout - the client is only willing to wait so long, and it's not waiting as long as it takes the host to process the other 2 requests.  If they're hosting in a shared/VPS environment, then it's probably more like 1 out of 3 is actually serviced.

B)  Somebody's running their MU and website on the dumbass.  They host their MU in their basement and they host their website someplace like wikidot.  They don't really have the faintest clue wtf they're doing.  They point a domain name at their free hosting on wikidot, never realizing they could also point a subdomain (such as mud.mydomain.com) at the separate IP Address where the MU is actually hosted.

C)  Somebody's running their MU and website on the lazy.  At some point both were on the same box, then they switched one or the other for some reason and never bothered to update the DNS Server.

D)  So on and so forth ad infinitum.

You can always connect via IP Address because it's a real, actual thing.  As long as the server's actually online and running, it's there to answer the phone.  You might not be able to connect via domain name sometimes or ever because domain names are a lie - in order to actually connect to a domain name, your computer sends out a DNS lookup request for that domain name and has to get back an accurate and up-to-date reply for the connection to work.  Lots and lots of reasons why a domain name might work on port 80 but not port 4000 even if the MU and website are on the same box, lots and lots of reasons why they might be on different boxes (in which case the same domain name would only work for one or the other).
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 14, 2018, 3:32 PM
Thank you.  I have seen some games not even bother posting the IP number in brackets.  I wonder if they simply forgot or did not know any better.

Any one know what all the codes on MUD clients mean?  (At least mobile ones anyway)

UTF's, x-gsm, x-ibm's, window's, x-IBM's, EUC's, etc.?  I just click and play on default settings.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: RahjIII on May 14, 2018, 5:43 PM
I have seen some games not even bother posting the IP number in brackets.  I wonder if they simply forgot or did not know any better.

Hey.. don't believe 100% of everything you read.  Today's internet runs on domain names, not on numeric IP addresses.   If you have to type in a numerical IP address to get to a site, it means the site you are trying to reach isn't set up correctly, and you'd be doing the admin a favor by letting them know.   

The reason you still see some IP addresses listed alongside MUD entries on sites like TMC is simply historical.

Before 1995, the internet was still an academic research project. There were restrictions on what kind of traffic you could send over it (game traffic was questionable) and it wasn't possible to own a private domain name like you can now.   In the late 80's and early 90's, it was difficult for a mud operator to find a sympathetic computer admin with some server space and a network connection who was willing to host a game, and it was really hard to find one who was also willing to stick their neck out and get the network people to bless it with a custom hostname.  DNS wasn't standardized until late 1987, and even in the early 90's a lot of older computers still used local hosts.txt files to map names to addresses, and those files had to be updated by hand.  As a player, you needed to know the numeric dot-quad IP address because the host.txt files weren't always kept up to date.  That's the reason the first mud lists were distributed with IP addresses, and why it later became tradition to list a mud along with an address when sites like TMC came online.

Fast forward thirty years, and the address is no longer required.  IP addresses aren't stored in text host files anymore, everything uses DNS.  Entering an address by hand into a listing site doesn't always make sense, as IP addresses can be dynamic and change from day to day.   In fact, addresses aren't always dotted quads like they used to be- more than a third of the network users in the US default to IPv6, and will only fall back to legacy IPv4 as a last resort.   DNS host names handle all of those network address details transparently. 

The upshot is that you shouldn't ever have to use a numeric address for a correctly configured site. 
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: nullscan on May 15, 2018, 1:37 AM
I have seen some games not even bother posting the IP number in brackets.  I wonder if they simply forgot or did not know any better.

Hey.. don't believe 100% of everything you read.  Today's internet runs on domain names, not on numeric IP addresses.   If you have to type in a numerical IP address to get to a site, it means the site you are trying to reach isn't set up correctly, and you'd be doing the admin a favor by letting them know.   

The upshot is that you shouldn't ever have to use a numeric address for a correctly configured site.

You are completely full of sh**.  Don't waste everybody's time spouting nonsense when you know less than nothing about the subject.

Every device on the internet, from PCs to cellphones, has an IP Address.  You literally can't be on the internet without an IP Address.  Period.  That's the truth that your own research and self-education will bear out.

Domain names are totally optional.  Some people don't have them because at the end of the day, domain names are nothing but vanity plates.  You pay money for a domain name that you don't need for people to connect to your game, so that they can connect to 'mud.mygame.com' instead of '123.321.123.321.'  It's that mind-bogglingly simple here in the real world where facts, not half-baked theories from crackpots, make the difference between "something working" and "something not working."

You have done a disservice to everyone who has or ever will read your ignorant BS by posting it.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: desharei on May 15, 2018, 7:36 AM
nullscan, what of destinations that have changing IP addresses?

I mean, MY computer's IP address is 10.01.01.01 or whatever everyone's personal computers are in their own home.

But if you were to try and connect to that IP address you'd get your computer, not mine.

Meanwhile, in internet land, some of us have dynamic IP addresses that change from time to time depending on the internet service provider's needs.

If the IP address that connects you to me is 123.321.123.321 today, but my ISP changes it to 124.421.124.421 next Tuesday, you will either get an error message, or you'll get someone else's computer.

On the other hand, if I name my connection desh (dot) com and it's registered as a domain name, then no matter which IP is assigned to this connection anyone who tries to type that name in, will get me (and not someone else or an error message).
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Jodah on May 15, 2018, 8:37 AM
Nullscan is completely full of sh**.  Domain names are used to identify one or more IP addresses. For example, the domain name microsoft.com represents about a dozen IP addresses. ... Because the Internet is based on IP addresses, not domain names, every Web server requires a Domain Name System (DNS) server to translate domain names into IP addresses.  If you have to type in a number to connect, it means they were too poor to buy a real domain name.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: nullscan on May 15, 2018, 9:14 AM
nullscan, what of destinations that have changing IP addresses?

I mean, MY computer's IP address is 10.01.01.01 or whatever everyone's personal computers are in their own home.

But if you were to try and connect to that IP address you'd get your computer, not mine.

Meanwhile, in internet land, some of us have dynamic IP addresses that change from time to time depending on the internet service provider's needs.

If the IP address that connects you to me is 123.321.123.321 today, but my ISP changes it to 124.421.124.421 next Tuesday, you will either get an error message, or you'll get someone else's computer.

On the other hand, if I name my connection desh (dot) com and it's registered as a domain name, then no matter which IP is assigned to this connection anyone who tries to type that name in, will get me (and not someone else or an error message).

This is technical minutiae and while it's not really incorrect, it's something like 12 massive misconceptions.

So let's start with the concepts of Local Area Network (LAN) vs Wide Area Network (WAN).  Pretty recently, say the last 5 years and less, some assclown at Microsoft (or where-the-f$!#-ever) came up with the idea to make everyone who used the internet stupider by calling it "The Cloud."  And I seriously mean that In reality, this was deliberately intended to make internet consumers stupider.  The internet was getting a bad rap, but "The Cloud" is new and different.  Wrap the cloud in quotation fingers mixed with jazz hands and imagine me making one of those stupid, "ooooooo" faces when I say it.  IT DID WHAT WAS INTENDED AMAZINGLY WELL!!!  So first "The Internet" became "The Cloud" and then pretty quickly all networks both LAN and WAN became "The Cloud" without any conceptual segregation even though there is physical segregation between ISP Networks and Home Networks and Interstate Networks and International Networks, and by "physical segregation" I mean in many stages and styles, both through actual firewalls and through "Subnetting" and "IP Address Typing" and "IP Address Classing."  Then there are additional conspiratory protocols such as various "Routing Protocols" including Gateway to Gateway, Link-State, and Distance-Vector (all of which are actually protocol types, thank you for skimming Wikipedia and puking your vague understanding up onto a thread that wasn't originally intended as an in-depth tutorial on how the ****ing internet works, Comic Book Guy) is this ringing any bells?  You know how when you configure an IP-device and you act like an adult so you don't just blindly take what "Dynamic Host Configuration Procotol" or DHCP gives you it always asks for the local IP Address, the Subnet Mask, and the Gateway IP?  Is that a flash of vague recollection I perceive?  No?  It was the clams you had for dinner?  I see.

So IPv4 uses 32-bits of data to describe a unique address, then another 32-bits of data to describe a unique subnet, and the subnet assigned to any particular device modifies its behavior with network packets and routing the same way a telephone number uses 4 digits for the "Subscriber Code" and 3 digits for the "Exchange Code" and 3 more digits for the "Area Code" so that you and John Doe can both have a phone number ending in 1337 and you and John Doe and Joe Blow can all have a local contact number of 500-1337 but all 3 of you wannabes HAVE DIFFERENT AREA CODES such as 707-500-1337.  Then you can add COUNTRY CODES to get even more fun out of it - now you and John Doe and Joe Blow and even Ivan Votoloshka can be 707-500-1337 because you're 707-707-500-1337 and John is 633-707-500-1337 and Joe is 844-707-500-1337 and Ivan is XDXD-LOL-SOO-LEET too.

Finally, yes - if you hand out your IP Address and then your ISP changes your IP Address, connections will fail.  What you don't seem to comprehend is that the same is true whether you point a ****ing domain name at it or not.  If you were to point a domain name at an IP Address that was then changed on you, then ALL YOUR INCOMING NETWORK REQUESTS TO THAT DOMAIN NAME WOULD BE ROUTED TO WHOEVER THE HELL GOT THAT IP AT THE NEXT DHCP CYCLE JUST LIKE IF THE END-USER HAD SUPPLIED YOUR IP INSTEAD OF YOUR DOMAIN NAME.  The only way domain services are worth half a sh** in a DHCP scenario is when you sign up for a service like dyndns and install their special software on your computer, which does nothing but automate the process of updating the DNS Server with wtf-ever your IP Address is now - or you can check your IP yourself every few hours and make any necessary updates manually.

Nullscan is completely full of sh**.  Domain names are used to identify one or more IP addresses. For example, the domain name microsoft.com represents about a dozen IP addresses. ... Because the Internet is based on IP addresses, not domain names, every Web server requires a Domain Name System (DNS) server to translate domain names into IP addresses.  If you have to type in a number to connect, it means they were too poor to buy a real domain name.

This is because of what's called "load balancing" and "cluster servers" you halfwit.  When X-number of requests-per-timeslice are DNS-routed to IP X, it moves on to responding with Y instead for the next timeslice.  Or when a stock DNS server is configured to direct domain name requests to multiple IP Addresses, they can be returned in a round-robin fashion.  This doesn't magically make a domain name representative of multiple addresses - it means M$ spent a lot of $ on developing their DNS server.

And you're only even that close to a gross misconception if you think you mean because pinging www.microsoft.com separate times results in pinging different IPs every time - if you think you mean because www.microsoft.com and msdn.microsoft.com are on different IPs, then you don't understand DNS servers, IP Addresses or the basic concept of domains vs subdomains then you're saying I'm full of sh** because you're too stupid to learn.

"Take one karate class, if you're so into karate." - Charlie Kelley
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Hades_Kane on May 15, 2018, 12:57 PM
Issued a 24 hour cooldown for both Jodah and Nullscan.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Darkozx on May 15, 2018, 2:04 PM
Poor Jodah, he barely said anything and was only responding...not even really looking for a fight. While you're at it, take care of your buddy TheDude for sending tranny's getting anal penetrated in PMs. I'm sure that should entail a longer than 24 hour ban.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Tijer on May 15, 2018, 2:08 PM
Actually he did do stuff warranting a ban, i was attempting to go without banning either with my mod edit on his post (removing some stuff about Jodah from Nullscan) 
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Redskull on May 16, 2018, 3:02 AM
As an observer I thought it was fairly obvious Jodah was pointing out nothing happend to nullscan when he said somebody was "full of sh**" by mimicing the same words.  nullscan got away free but Jodah gets punished. Jodah's response was taken as equal to nullscan wishing real life death on somebody with an extremely harsh and vulgar post.  How is nullscan's response proportional at all, much less equal of the same punishment, wtf is wrong with the mods here?
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Epilogy on May 16, 2018, 3:33 AM
As an observer I thought it was fairly obvious Jodah was pointing out nothing happend to nullscan when he said somebody was "full of sh**" by mimicing the same words.  nullscan got away free but Jodah gets punished. Jodah's response was taken as equal to nullscan wishing real life death on somebody with an extremely harsh and vulgar post.  How is nullscan's response proportional at all, much less equal of the same punishment, wtf is wrong with the mods here?

Mostly that Jodah plays devil's advocate often enough for the sake of driving discussion, while nullscan is mostly just being offensive.

I like Jodah, mostly. He can get a bit much, but he's still usually good for pulling something out of left field that makes you pause, and consider the angle of the perspective he's coming with. Some just regard him as a worthless troll, but I quietly appreciate his added perspective on many topics, though not all. He definitely can push the envelope.

Nullscan is fairly new, and often attempts to use logic as a weapon. What he can't batter down with pure logic, he'll slip in the side something meant to incite. He generally thinks he's smarter than most people, and only cares about your opinion so far as he can debate with it.

Two sides of the same coin, maybe, but I favor Jodah out of the two. He's almost benign compared to his somewhat hateful competition in the field of "official arguer of TMC"

That's just my humble, over-time perspective on the two, and why I feel things were weighted the way they were. Jodah probably knew better and proceeded regardless, and null-scan just didn't care about anything here enough to actually put forth the attempt of civil discussion. There's your newcomer breakdown of the two individuals.

Me? I'm just a crazy ***hole! :D
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Hades_Kane on May 16, 2018, 10:37 AM
The moderator actions forum and the associated thread are the appropriate places to discuss moderator actions.  The 24 hour cool off is intended to both give both posters time to step away and for a thread to get back on track.  Discussing it here is only further derailing.

http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=81390.0
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 16, 2018, 11:27 PM

Any one know what all the codes on MUD clients mean?  (At least mobile ones anyway)

UTF's, x-gsm, x-ibm's, window's, x-IBM's, EUC's, etc.?  I just click and play on default settings.

Just in case it was lost in the fluff.  ^_^
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Jodah on May 17, 2018, 4:16 AM
Curious x-IBM is listed twice.  I believe those have to do with API and has nothing to do with your mudding phone experience, I would use the default.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: RahjIII on May 17, 2018, 9:42 AM
UTF-8 is a character encoding type like ASCII, and if your client supports MTTS protocol, it might provide a client option to say whether or not you want it to indicate support for UTF-8 up to the server.  No clue what that other stuff is.

What client are you seeing these options in, Flint?
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Tijer on May 17, 2018, 11:00 AM
As far as i know some of those are terminal emulations for ssh/telnet clients.. doesnt really make much of a difference to muds...  As RahjIII says UTF8 allows for an extended charset
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 17, 2018, 11:44 PM
Curious x-IBM is listed twice.  I believe those have to do with API and has nothing to do with your mudding phone experience, I would use the default.

There are "x-ibm's" and "x-IBM's", both followed by a few numbers.  I am not sure of the significance, if any, of the lower and upper casing.

What client are you seeing these options in, Flint?

I primarily use Blowtorch for mobile text gaming.  But I found these options in bMudclient on the Google Play Store.  There are several more kinds besides the ones I mentioned and most have dozens of different versions for each type.  I would say between 200 to 300 different options.  I was just kind of taken aback so I just use the default.
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: RahjIII on May 18, 2018, 10:31 AM
I would guess that they are character set encodings.  Some languages, Korean or Russian for example, use a character set that is different from ASCIII.  If you connect to a mud that is serving one of those languages, you'd need a client that could use that character encoding in order to play.  It looks like bMudClient has support for that. 

The thing about adding support for character set encodings is that it's usually easier to add support for all of them at once than it is to add support for a single target language.   So an app might end up with a menu full of esoteric encoding names to choose from, depending on how many your operating system has installed. 

Unless you know the mud you are trying to play requires a specific code-page, you should set your encoding to UTF8, and you'll be fine. 
Title: Re: Renting, port numbers and other questions.
Post by: nullscan on May 18, 2018, 1:01 PM
As far as i know some of those are terminal emulations for ssh/telnet clients.. doesnt really make much of a difference to muds...  As RahjIII says UTF8 allows for an extended charset

On an ASCII MU, written 100% in English language, which all the original MUs were, UTF-8 wouldn't make any difference at all because UTF-8 was specifically and deliberately engineered to be backward-compatible with ASCII.  ASCII is a 7-bit character encoding, UTF-8 is an 8-bit character encoding within the ASCII printables range.  If you used UTF-16 on an ASCII MU, every other byte will be 0x00 (and the client may transmit a leading Byte Order Marker or BOM at the front of every text string) so you may either send garbage/unreadable input since 0x00 is a string-terminator in data for the C programming language, or you may not be able to connect at all when the BOM is mistaken for data corruption in-transit and the MU just gives up on you.

On a UTF8-MU, written mostly in the English language but using some characters like the umlaut or other Unicode character-enhancements, running in ASCII mode would result in your client printing garbage/unreadable characters.   On a UTF16-MU, written 100% in the English Language, using either UTF-8 or ASCII will both cause problems because the MU expects every other byte to be 0x00 and instead you'll send every byte as a straight-through character.

As RajIII points out, ASCII and Unicode aren't the only encodings and some of those options aren't encoding-related.  Unicode could/should be the only one you encounter in MUs built in the last 10 years or so, but there are older implementations that use encodings that were created before Unicode.