The MUD Connector

Mud Development and Administration => Advanced Coding and Mud Design => Topic started by: Darkozx on April 27, 2018, 3:16 PM

Title: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Darkozx on April 27, 2018, 3:16 PM
Eating and drinking, some hate it, some enjoy it and most ignore it. It comes stock with most MUDs and usually helps determines your natural regen. Some MUDs will go as far as killing your character if you do not eat or drink. But what does your MUD do and what is your take on eating and drinking in MUDs? Do you think there could be a better way to go about it, should it be left alone or maybe even removed(if not already)? I'm not talking about in general, just your MUD or your favorite MUD you play. Let's get this started, seems I'll go first.

This is copied from part of the eat help file.

Each time you eat something you restore 2% powerlevel.
Each time you drink something you have a 50% to restore 2.5% ki.
Eating and drinking can restore 1-4% fatigue.
Food will spoil and rot over time, each real life hour your food will slightly spoil.
The more hunger your food restores, the longer it will last without rotting.

That's just the basics of what I added for eating and drinking, some other races take a step further but let's get in some other MUDs before I go into too much detail about DBE.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Hades_Kane on April 27, 2018, 5:15 PM
Thanks for focusing the discussion out of that promo thread.

I'll go second!

Under normal circumstances, End of Time doesn't feature hunger or thirst however there is food and drink (along with getting full from both).  Eating food will normally restore a small amount of HP, while there are some specialized food items that can have additional affects.  Builders can also script food items to do special things upon eating them, as well.

We do have an area called the Desert of Scorching Heat that makes use of the room flag "dry" that factors thirst via the "heatstroke" status affect.  Basically, any room flagged dry will inflict "heatstroke" on a character who is thirsty, which enacts stat penalties and damage (and can lead to death).  Simply drinking to full from this point (and remaining hydrated) will remove heatstroke.  We have a fire-based spell that inflicts heatstroke, as well.

Otherwise, though, we've looked at hunger/thirst as a normal, everyday mechanism as being a needless annoyance for some sake of "realism" or tradition, especially since MOST of the games where that's a thing people just set triggers to handle it and never really think much about it other than buying food/drink as almost a playtime maintenance tax.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on April 27, 2018, 9:39 PM
Here's my paste of my post in the other thread:
Quote
Hunger and thirst code don't bother me as long as they're spaced apart by a reasonable real-world time window. If you have to eat or drink something every real-life half-hour, no matter what the circumstances or your character's surroundings, it could make for some incredibly awkward roleplay.

For instance - having to take a sip of a canteen every half hour makes sense if your character is riding around outside in a desert environment. But not if he's sitting down in his own apartment. Having to eat every half hour makes sense if he's doing a lot of physical exertion (burning a lot of calories) but not if he's just hanging out at the bar.

ArmageddonMUD has hunger/thirst code, but they've slowed down and altered the stock code to make it more appropriate for the setting while increasing playability. The setting is a post-apocalyptic desert planet, so there's bound to be plenty of thirst. Water is scarce out in the wastes, and critters are dangerous. In the safety of cities there's less thirst, but more oppression. So players have to decide which way their characters are going to go - freedom and possibly dying of thirst, or conforming to societal stricture and with a very good chance of satiety.

Hunger has different factors that go into it, whether you've been physically active for a duration, plus the game's natural cycling, plus how hungry you were just before the next phase of hunger set in. If you're near starving it'd obviously take longer to recover, and getting worse would be more severe - than if you just ate til you were stuffed, and are now merely "not hungry."

The hunger and thirst code also provide for further code opportunities and for roleplay opportunities, such as hiring hunters to get meat for you, or being one of those hired hunters to provide meat for someone who needs it, or being a member of a clan that functions as a merchant crew to cater at noble parties, and using the crafting system to come up with all kinds of gastronomic delicacies.

There are a lot of other opportunities but this isn't a promotion post. Suffice it to say though - there is a place for hunger and thirst code, as long as it is a) believable and b) playable.

Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Kermorvan on April 28, 2018, 2:46 AM
Good feedback from MUD owners so here is some from a player.

In the fall of '91 I was a mage who after a few months of mapping, searching out the proper equipment, the proper spells and gaining the skills needed to wield each tackled the epic quest of gaining a chimera pet. I was a POWERMONGER and with the aid of my pet in another 6 or so months I was able to take out the feared red dragon.

I remember the feeling of gaining that chimera, it still brings a grin to my face. I remember the joy and pride when I finally slayed the dragon. How many remember that piece of bread they ate, or drinking from the waterskin that they have triggered to fill every time they pass the fountain?

I draw the line at hunger/thirst that negatively effects gameplay. I stretch that if it can be avoided. For instance, I have a Knight on EOT,  he never goes to the desert. Doesn't get the bonus from food. It gets ignored as gameplay and I focus on the things I enjoy.

I generally play a main mud and have an alt mud for a change of pace. Over the years one or the other disappear, die off etc. so I am on the search again. I ask early when getting on a mud about hunger/thirst. If its has negative effects and can't be ignored I'm gone, simple as that. Plenty of times the answer, even from IMMS, is just trigger it. This was mentioned in the other thread, if the entire player base uses a client work around for a game feature, is it really something you feel is adding to your MUD?

With respect to the Owners here, I would ask how many people play your MUD for the hunger/thirst feature? I would also ask. How many people Don't play your MUD for the hunger/thirst feture?
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Kolem on April 28, 2018, 10:39 AM
First of all, thank you for transferring this discussion out of my promotional post. It was beginning to feel a bit derailing, to be honest.  Speaking only as a player, hunger and thirst in my MUD can never actively damage the player, but they can be 'distractions'--in short, they impede skill percentages by ten percent each.  I suppose to some extent I've been spoiled, because the Cleft--my native MUD--has a variety of entertaining, beneficial food items. I don't just mean generic cheap stuff, though that's certainly available--I mean things like fresh-caught fish, or cooked pasta, or cakes, or pies. Not all of it is equally nutritious, and some different Races have increased or decreased hunger or thirst rates as benefits or drawbacks. One race does not eat at all, and at least one grows hungry more quickly, so they're encouraged to seek out more nutritious items.

I'm unfamiliar with other MUDs, so I thought this was a more standard feature than it is.  And I do respect those who say that hunger or thirst prompts can interfere with roleplaying--if your game is focused on roleplaying, certainly, it would be aggravating. It did in fact interfere, historically, when in-game roleplaying groups got together; there were various solutions attempted. (As I'm not heavily into in-game roleplay in that way, it was less of a concern for me.) Some of the attempted solutions was a focus on world notes, which are more post-by-play esque, but during a forced couple-year sabbatical the game I play transitioned to hosting relevant roleplays using a dedicated discord.

I suppose it's very difficult to balance game concerns and roleplay concerns at the same time, isn't it?

Edit: For clarity, here is the helpfile for hunger and thirst from my game.

help hunger

EAT HUNGER HUNGRY SATIATION FOOD PILLS
Syntax: eat <object>
        eat =food
 
When you're hungry, eat something!
 
SATIATION is how much food satisfies you.
FULLNESS is how full food makes you.
Food with low satiation and high fullness makes you feel full but you might
still be hungry (such as filling but unnutricious foods like cake).
 
Pills do not affect satiation or fullness, but you cannot eat them if you are
full.
 
Being hungry penalizes your regeneration rates. Being hungry or thirsty also
penalizes your skills by 10%.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Ateraan on April 28, 2018, 1:25 PM
Some history on hunger and thirst. This type of spam:

You are hungry you should eat something.
You are thirsty you should drink something.

Originated with the SMAUG code (which originated from something else that I don't remember but but smaug made it very popular) and has become a staple of 100's of MUDs. In my opinion it is extremely annoying especially for a new player when within an hour of starting a game you are dying of thirst. After testing over 100 games we found this code on every other game my staff or I played. It was so prevalent, in fact, that we created a help file about it.

I think anyone with this code in their game should either remove it or modify it to be more player friendly or useful. Considering the dominance of it though, this is strictly my opinion as others may feel differently and actually like it.

There is one thing worse than that though and I've only seen it once. It is the requirement to periodically relieve yourself. Yes, this was in a game I played over 10 years ago (I don't think it is around anymore) but it was shocking and kind of gross.  :-[
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Tijer on April 28, 2018, 4:31 PM
Some history on hunger and thirst. This type of spam:

You are hungry you should eat something.
You are thirsty you should drink something.

Originated with the SMAUG code (which originated from something else that I don't remember but but smaug made it very popular) and has become a staple of 100's of MUDs. In my opinion it is extremely annoying especially for a new player when within an hour of starting a game you are dying of thirst. After testing over 100 games we found this code on every other game my staff or I played. It was so prevalent, in fact, that we created a help file about it.

I think anyone with this code in their game should either remove it or modify it to be more player friendly or useful. Considering the dominance of it though, this is strictly my opinion as others may feel differently and actually like it.

There is one thing worse than that though and I've only seen it once. It is the requirement to periodically relieve yourself. Yes, this was in a game I played over 10 years ago (I don't think it is around anymore) but it was shocking and kind of gross.  :-[

Seeing as SMAUG is based upon Merc, which its self is based upon DIKU i can catergorically say that it wasnt SMAUG that was the first mud to have hunger and thirst in it.  It is in all of the DIKU branches of MUDS.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Epilogy on April 28, 2018, 6:49 PM
It is in all of the DIKU branches of MUDS.

Laughing my ass off right now, but this is the non-fictional account. "A might peckish" has been one oh my phrases for a long time now.

In general I don't mind hunger, and thirst. It's a means of affecting realism in non-obvious ways, like giving carry weight, and count additional meaning.

If someone eating food in a game is in some way disrupting to players, I would suggest those same players apply the same suspension-of-belief. They can gag the messages if it's really so difficult for them. Don't see a need to force preference on all of you can deal with it yourself, as far as you're concerned.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Kermorvan on April 29, 2018, 12:45 PM
They can gag the messages if it's really so difficult for them. Don't see a need to force preference on all of you can deal with it yourself, as far as you're concerned.

Totally agree with this, if there are no negative effects from it. Just #GAG the messages and ignore it.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Epilogy on April 29, 2018, 1:07 PM
They can gag the messages if it's really so difficult for them. Don't see a need to force preference on all of you can deal with it yourself, as far as you're concerned.

Totally agree with this, if there are no negative effects from it. Just #GAG the messages and ignore it.

Just wildcard the incoming lines from the mud to * eats *, * drinks * from *. You could fork all eating, and drinking to a different window altogether, and never see any of it while your triggers manage it.

There are a lot of things you can do with your client if you have the patience. (And it has the capability. Don't look for this functionality on mobile clients, most can barely even meet minimum needs.)
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Jodah on April 30, 2018, 12:36 AM
I love it when I log into World of Warcraft, LOTRO, Guild Wars, DC Universe, Anarchy Online, Everquest, Black Desert Online, or any modern mmorpg and they make me eat or drink or sleep every 5 minutes just to play without failing spells.  Oh wait, no modern game does that because it's a mundane chore and not fun.  I mean seriously, could you imagine the rioting if modern gamers were forced to eat every 5 minutes?  They'd be looking for a new game quick.

I think End of Time gets it about right by making eat and drink more optional while treating such activities more like quaffing potions.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Darkozx on April 30, 2018, 12:38 AM
Actually on WoW you can eat and drink(well last time I played) to restore hp and mana. You would sit down and slowly eat for about 10 seconds or so. Eating and drinking should be ok if it has perks, a system without any perks would only exist to annoy the players with spammy messages.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Jodah on April 30, 2018, 1:03 AM
That treats eating more like quaffing potions or healing items, which is different from muds, with exceptions.  In other words, instead of calling it a regenerative item like a health potion, they call it "eating", which I have no problem with.  If I have to eat 5 or 10 minutes just to not fail a spell, I'll pass.  Speaking of failing spells, that's another thing modern mmorpgs do, no spell failure. 
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on April 30, 2018, 8:54 PM
I've heard that some old-school stock DIKU type games have the kind of hunger/thirst that you have to eat or drink constantly to avoid spam.

But Armageddon's hunger/thirst doesn't really work in that manner at all.

Example

Your character is a social person, not the outdoorsy type. Spends a lot of time in the bar or with her clan of crafters, indoors in the crafting hall, and walking inside the city between places, sometimes shopping in indoor shopping areas, etc. Not a wilderness kind of "outside," but instead the city-area outdoors.

This character could show up out of the character generator and not have to drink any water at all for the next 3 RL days you log her into the game. And she might get one "you're getting hungry" message near the end of that third day, at which point a single steak and maybe a piece of fruit would likely be enough to make her "stuffed."

Compare with the half-elven tribal who lives in a semi-isolated outpost where it's always windy, sometimes stormy, dust and sand kicks up all the time, and she spends most of her time outside hunting, foraging, or digging clay or salt. You betcha she's gonna get thirsty, a LOT more often than the chick in the bar. She's also doing a lot more physical work so she's going to get more hungry, more often as well.

It's not a matter of realism. It's a matter of believability. It's *because* it's a roleplaying game that the code supports the roleplay. Your character SHOULD get hungry and thirsty once in awhile and if you choose to ignore that fact, you should expect the code to remind you that it's kind of an important thing to do from time to time.

It's assume that when you are logged out of the game, your character is eating and drinking and going to the bathroom and doing whatever she does as a living breathing person living in the game world. When you log in, your character picks up where she left off. Bathroom useage is not hard-coded. But it's not commonly considered something that anyone would ever roleplay, anyway. Eating and drinking IS something people would roleplay, so the code supports it. Because of the theme of the game (a desert world) there are consequences to rejecting food and water. Your character can actually die of thirst.

But that takes awhile, in ordinary circumstances and unless your character does really stupid things and has no one to help them, it's a very rare occurrence for someone to die of thirst.

Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Kermorvan on May 01, 2018, 8:24 AM
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Epilogy on May 01, 2018, 10:31 AM
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

But in case it does, please inform the the ashamed closet snack cake sneaker I didn't mean to assume their means of ingestion.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on May 01, 2018, 5:50 PM
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

No one is "forced" to eat or drink on Armageddon. You can choose not to eat even if the code says your character is hungry. Your character will eventually start to suffer HP loss if he doesn't find something to eat, but that's a choice you make as a player. Maybe you want to play a character who suffers, a guy who relies on the kindness of strangers, or his next con job, to eat. If you don't have coded hunger, you can't play that kind of character because hey - I don't have to con anyone for a meal, my PC is never hungry.

You don't have to drink, if your character is thirsty. Your character will actually eventually die of thirst, if he gets thirsty enough but again - it's a choice you make, and a consequence of your choices. You can forget to bring water with you on a ride, and get thirsty, and woops you forgot that your character has no friends who can rescue you so you act out the last moments of life being sad and lonely and thirsty.

Or you could use your psionic ability to find a friend's mind and ask if he is able to rescue you. Or at least send word to your boss that you tried to come home. Or you could try riding around looking for a watersource as a last-ditch effort. Or heck if you're brand new to the game and simply got lost in a huge sandstorm and the code keeps bringing you back to the same room over and over again, you could "wish up" to the staff and see if someone might animate a raider who saves your character's life in exchange for his sword, and directs you to the nearest Byn Sergeant to get hired and learn how to survive better and have lots of RP opportunities.

All a choice. No forcing, the code doesn't prevent you from continuing just because you have the "thirst" message. It's a warning that "it's time to think about maybe finding something to drink pretty soon." If you choose to ignore the messages (you get a few of them before it's dire), then it's because of your choices that your character is dead.

Last I knew though, starvation doesn't cause death in Armageddon. It causes suffering, which can eventually be severe enough that you have an option to "quit-die" and kill off your character rather than wait for help to arrive or a food source to present itself.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Hades_Kane on May 02, 2018, 11:03 AM
Quote from: desharei
No one is "forced" to eat or drink on Armageddon.
Quote from: desharei
Your character will actually eventually die of thirst
Quote from: desharei
No forcing, the code doesn't prevent you from continuing just because you have the "thirst" message. It's a warning that "it's time to think about maybe finding something to drink pretty soon." If you choose to ignore the messages (you get a few of them before it's dire), then it's because of your choices that your character is dead.

Umm... I think generally speaking, "do this or you will die" it typically looked at as being forced to do something.

Unless you are REALLY reaching for a deep philosophical discussion here, about how EVERYTHING in life, including life itself, is a choice, then no one is ever forced to do anything ever at all; that the concept of being "forced" simply doesn't exist, that if someone breaks into your home and holds a gun to you and your family's head and says "if you don't jump up and down then you all die"... that you aren't being "forced" to do this because, after all, you can always choose to let you and your family die.

In game design, pretty much anyone (contrarian trolls, aside) will consider anything that is necessary in order to continue playing a game to be a game mechanic that a player is forced to do.

Especially considering (based on my scant understanding of the game) that Armageddon is permadeath (right?), it sounds like Hunger/Thirst is even MORE of a forced mechanic there than most games... you can dress it up or try to hide that fact under whatever semantics you would like, but at the end of the day, if players want to play the game but ignore the thirst mechanic and then can no longer proceed playing the game as a result, they are forced to drink.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on May 02, 2018, 7:24 PM
Yes it's permadeath. But hunger/thirst choices are no different from combat choices. If you see you're getting beat badly, you have choices. You can continue to get beat up and eventually die, or you can flee and hope to live another day. Or you can prepare yourself in advance for the possibility of some day needing to make that decision, and hopefully end up being the one doing the beating rather than the one doing the fleeing or dying.

And just like in in-game situational politics: your character can tell a templar "you're a meany head because you want to kill an elf just because he's an elf" and end up dead as well. Or you can keep your mouth shut and possibly outlive that templar some day. Or you can do a bunch of other things that involve "risk of death due to templar."

Hunger and thirts, in Armageddon, are slowed down dramatically from the origins in DIKU, and made more situational so that players have more roleplay opportunities using the code, than if the code didn't exist at all.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Prime Minister Sinister on May 04, 2018, 2:32 PM
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

This is very true.

I'm actually pretty down with players being forced to RP, and wish more MUDs took that road.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

You'd be surprised at how many interesting situations can come up over a shared meal, or when saving someone dying of dehydration in the desert, or when dealing with someone that's dirt broke and will do -anything- for a bite to eat.

Or during all those other food/drink-related situations that don't exist in MUDs that don't have such features.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Epilogy on May 04, 2018, 3:06 PM
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

This is very true.

I'm actually pretty down with players being forced to RP, and wish more MUDs took that road.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

You'd be surprised at how many interesting situations can come up over a shared meal, or when saving someone dying of dehydration in the desert, or when dealing with someone that's dirt broke and will do -anything- for a bite to eat.

Or during all those other food/drink-related situations that don't exist in MUDs that don't have such features.

Use your imagination.

Or does someone need to also code that for you?
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on May 04, 2018, 3:18 PM
If your character can't codedly die, then he also can't die of thirst. If your character can't become codedly ill/infirm/weak from hunger, then no one will take him seriously when he says he can't stand up, because he's starving and too weak to do so.

Again - the code supports the roleplay. This isn't a smurf game, or a game where everyone gets to be the hero. It's a niche game for a niche market and the people who enjoy playing it will be attracted to the entirety of the game as a whole, not merely its specific nitpicked traits.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Prime Minister Sinister on May 04, 2018, 3:36 PM
If your game mechanics force players to eat/drink then you are forcing RP not supporting it. That said, there are those into that sort of thing. Plenty of options out there.

This is very true.

I'm actually pretty down with players being forced to RP, and wish more MUDs took that road.

I'm not sure how forcing everyone to eat involves any sort of role play.

You'd be surprised at how many interesting situations can come up over a shared meal, or when saving someone dying of dehydration in the desert, or when dealing with someone that's dirt broke and will do -anything- for a bite to eat.

Or during all those other food/drink-related situations that don't exist in MUDs that don't have such features.

Use your imagination.

Or does someone need to also code that for you?

whoahohokay there tiger, let's pump the brakes a little on that needless snark, okay?

Alls I'm saying is that in two decades of mudding, it was only in muds where these needs were coded that these situations would ever arise with any regularity whatsoever.

Maybe your experiences differ, but that's what I've noticed.

From what I've seen, if said situations did ever arise in a MUD where such things weren't coded, it was typically a plot device from imms, or a bored player doing a one-off "im starving pls help" thing that they knew they could get away with because there weren't any real consequences for being ignored by other players-- which they were, more often than not.

I know it's anecdotal, but I specifically remember a situation on a RP-Enforced Dragonlance MUD where I myself got bored and decided to roll a beggar that begged for food near the inn. A couple of people stopped and tried to help, but couldn't, because they were so far removed from the concept of hunger and thirst in the game that they didn't even know how to acquire food in the first place!

Don't think I'm knocking MUDs that don't have hunger/thirst code, I'm not, by any means. I'm just noting that MUDs that do have hunger/thirst code can benefit from RP situations that revolve around hunger and thirst on a more regular basis, as opposed to MUDs where hunger and thirst can be ignored and forgotten about entirely. Unless someone feels like playing it out, at least.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Bronn on May 05, 2018, 7:31 PM
In my experience, MUDs that require the character to consume food and water usually feature food and water in enough abundance that you would have to either fail pretty badly to starve/dehydrate, or do it on purpose. Thus there isn't a significant challenge when it comes to acquiring food and water, and the acquisition and consumption of food and water becomes more of a tedious chore than an RP hook. In my experience this has even been the case in MUDs that feature harsh worlds and severe scarcity. Though that is more of a sign of the challenge of trying to simulate an economy than a problem with eating and drinking code specifically.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 07, 2018, 5:35 PM
I have a love hate relationship with Armageddon.  It is cool they treat things so realistically and yet it is a real pain in the ass at times as well.  But if you don't like it, then don't play it, it is as simple as that.  The fact that it is usually in the top 10 or 20 all the time means they are obviously doing something right.  And the fact that you are forced to eat and drink or die, does in fact lead to great rping.  I have had some of my best and emotional moments from that game, as well some of the most annoying and this comes from having barely played it.  It grips you by the balls the moment you enter it's world and squeezes tighter and tighter till they explode in a shower of euphoria.  My only complaint is that you should be able to recycle your own or companion's pee.  Now that would be realistic and make for some interesting RPing... (Ha! Get it!?  Rpeeing!?  Anyone!?... No... Tough crowd... [Sighs and walks off])

But in saying all that, I do hate games that remind you constantly every so many minutes or when entering every single room.  Like chill out, I know my character is hungry and thirsty.  But there are over 900 muds to choose from and 100 of which are fairly populated.  If you do not like one there are many more to choose from and all (mostly) free!
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Bronn on May 07, 2018, 5:59 PM
Armageddon is an unusual case. The code treats hunger and thirst fairly realistically; the players generally don't, in my experience. I started to realize this about the 20th time I observed someone pull a steak out of their backpack mid-scene and spam "eat steak" until their steak was gone, presumably because they got the "You are a little hungry." message.

Somewhere between the code and the player base is the economy, in which food is extremely easy to come by, and so is water in many cases. Food and water are given out freely by clans, and its members don't have to put any effort or investment into acquiring that food or water. People who don't join clans often can get food and water in other easy ways. But many games have strange economic quirks and Armageddon isn't alone in this area.

However, the game's code is great at simulating increased hunger and thirst rates for performing strenuous activities or spending all your time outside in the desert. It just doesn't offer a whole lot else, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 07, 2018, 7:16 PM
The little I have played and in a bar, people "sat" down and chatted while eating and drinking, opposed to just standing around and eating and walking out or even bothering to come in to begin with.

Then there was a time I was out in the wilderness (Really just on the out skirts of town.) and I am not sure what three others were really doing, probably digging up and gathering something... But they accepted me and we were taking turns gathering and guarding, watching out for raiders and or giant beetles.  I got to know my three companions, two guys and a girl. The next day logging on I found her body closer to the out skirts of the town. Or I assumed it was her. She had the same clothes and look anyway. (I think ARM does not tell you directly who is who just by looking, but I could be mistaken, I have played so many...)  I took pity on her and was sorrowful and decided to stay by her side to make sure no one disturbed the body. I brought flowers or something as a headstone of sorts. Perhaps there was a mechanism that would of allowed me to bury her, but I have no idea. Then I came back a day or two later and the body was gone as I recall. 

My memory's a little foggy, but that is how I remember it anyway.  I have no idea what happened to her companions for the better or worse.  I want to say bettles got her, but maybe they had turned on her.  Or maybe she tried to run with the items and or money and they caught her.  Or someone else mugged and killed her... Who knows...  Part of the mystery...

Trying to say I can get the same experience from a "vanilla" mud is not possible.  There are other games that take it as seriously, or so I reckon, but most do not.  Whether you like it or not it was enough of an event to remember and me bother sharing with you all.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Kermorvan on May 08, 2018, 11:19 AM
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on May 08, 2018, 12:01 PM
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.

Not hijacking at all. If you want to explain how thirst and hunger work best in your game, by all means tell us. Anyone is welcome to discuss the subject (coded hunger/thirst). I and a couple of others enjoy the coded hunger and thirst specifically because the game we play does it in a way that we enjoy it.

But when someone says "hunger/thirst sucks in muds because a, b, and c is empirically true" then those of us who experience otherwise will chime in and say "that's not empirically true because on our mud d, e, and f instead."
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Epilogy on May 08, 2018, 12:08 PM
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.

Given their aggressiveness here, and on reddit, I'm fairly sure they're being given some kind of incentive. Ateraan left a large vacuum, so I guess the award of "will you please shut the **** up already" now goes to armageddon.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Flint Stovetop on May 09, 2018, 12:15 AM
I give a few reasons why hunger and thirst is a decent play mechanic and use ARM as a good example and now I and or we are advertising for the game?

There are plenty of reasons to hate ARM if you like.  The ridiculous and tedious initial set up and approval process.  The always having to roleplay and be in character is annoying and permadeath I have never enjoyed.  But to each their own.

Yet this topic was about hunger and thirst which ARM does well.  Why are people whinning about it?  Your game not as good?
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Bronn on May 09, 2018, 8:37 AM
I think we can discuss Armageddon's hunger and thirst system if we can accept that the statement that Arm does it well is totally subjective and there are, in fact, reasons to suggest that Arm doesn't do hunger and thirst very well at all.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: desharei on May 09, 2018, 9:41 AM
Hah, I say we should petition the OP to change the Subject to Armageddon promo. Great job hijacking to advertise your mud.

Given their aggressiveness here, and on reddit, I'm fairly sure they're being given some kind of incentive. Ateraan left a large vacuum, so I guess the award of "will you please shut the **** up already" now goes to armageddon.

See - every time people derail the topic to criticize players of a game, off-topic, you encourage people like me to chime in and correct you.

The incentive doesn't come from the game, it comes from TheMudconnector.  The voting system was changed on Mudconnector, such that people who want to vote now have to post. Many Arm players had been voting, and registered, but never posted. So they found topics of interest, or made new ones, or added their names to existing "Hello" posts, in order to get their count up so that they'd be eligible to vote again.

Many of these folks are folks who have been around all along, and have been voting, UNTIL the recent changes. They're being "vocal" only because of those changes. They've never read this forum before, they have no idea who the "usual" posters are, or the general courtesy and protocol and politics involved in contributing.

I know all of that, because I've been with this forum since the late 1990's in one form or another. I know that when someone posts something that is absolutely incorrect about a game, people will post to correct them. If you want this thread to stop talking about this one specific game, stop criticizing it in this thread and maybe come up with a new thread that exists just to criticize the game.

Notice that I haven't mentioned the game at all in this post. You have though. And yet, I am pretty sure you're not trying to advertise the game.

Hunger, thirst - some games do it as a feature, and it is one of dozens of features that combine to attract certain types of game players. Others do it because it came with the stock code, and the game owners have chosen to leave it in and not touch it (or maybe they didn't know how to take it out). And others have removed the code completely, while still others never had it in, in the first place. DIKU comes with it. Some DIKU-rivatives have tweaked it to work for their genre. Others have not. It's ALL subjective. The entire subject of "whether or not hunger/thirst is a good thing for a game" is subjective. It really depends on the game, and the overall community of players of each particular game.

Specifics have been posted.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Xander Carinus on May 14, 2018, 12:20 PM
In my project, eating and drinking is a thing, however it doesn't damage the character, rather, it damages their mentalstate.  It is not something that happens every 5 minutes, but eventually it does happen. 

I think it adds a bit to the realism, but as a player of many RPGs (console) that do not require it... it's a feature that really isn't missed. But I ask... what is the point of skills like 'cooking' if there is no requirement to eat?

I may opt to remove the feature completely.. but I would want to do more research and see how others have used it. 
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Redskull on May 16, 2018, 3:11 AM
i don't mind eating and drinking as you can just write a script to take care of both, I would rather eat and drink to ensure success and fast regen instead of leaving it to chance.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Gicker on May 16, 2018, 10:29 AM
We just recently implemented a new eating/drinking system on Age of Dragons.  Basically food and drink become equipable items.  Different food/drinks offer different bonuses to stats.  Each tick, the food/drink is reduced by one serving.  When serving reaches zero, the item is removed (and extracted in the case of food) and the player no longer receives the bonus to stat(s).
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: thenumberoned on May 26, 2018, 12:41 AM
We just recently implemented a new eating/drinking system on Age of Dragons.  Basically food and drink become equipable items.  Different food/drinks offer different bonuses to stats.  Each tick, the food/drink is reduced by one serving.  When serving reaches zero, the item is removed (and extracted in the case of food) and the player no longer receives the bonus to stat(s).


That sounds like a pretty nifty idea, makes eating and drinking something fun or good to do rather than a nuisance, i'm assumign it also lets you know when your character is about to be hungry vs thirsty.., before it happens.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Gicker on May 26, 2018, 12:50 PM
We just recently implemented a new eating/drinking system on Age of Dragons.  Basically food and drink become equipable items.  Different food/drinks offer different bonuses to stats.  Each tick, the food/drink is reduced by one serving.  When serving reaches zero, the item is removed (and extracted in the case of food) and the player no longer receives the bonus to stat(s).


That sounds like a pretty nifty idea, makes eating and drinking something fun or good to do rather than a nuisance, i'm assumign it also lets you know when your character is about to be hungry vs thirsty.., before it happens.

It does give a notification prior to the food/drink item expiring.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: julius2 on May 31, 2018, 9:12 AM
With eating and drinking it depends alot on the tipe of game. I prefer games where food does something beside fill you. Like heal you or give you extra power for a time. That makes it more like a game and less like real life.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: secrete on May 31, 2018, 9:15 AM
That makes it more like a game and less like real life.

I concur. I don't want it to feel like real life.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: perseforis on June 09, 2018, 9:01 AM
Hunger or thirst as a compulsory mechanism, as noted by many above, generally detracts from the player experience, and is therefore undesirable.

The addition of capacity to eat/drink to provide benefit to a character, however, as an optional addition, is a sound mechanism. This can take the form of temporary bonuses, or healing.

I prefer a mud with a continuous-gameplay style (i.e. no waiting for healing) which a food/drink mechanism can provide. A good example is End of the Line, where eating/drinking mostly serves a healing purpose.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: Darkozx on June 09, 2018, 2:12 PM
Good example also would have been the other MUDs that were mentioned to give a healing boost with eating and drinking. I would suggest End of Time instead of Line though. They were mentioned first and not part of a 5 post spam to be able to vote.
Title: Re: Eating and Drinking
Post by: LokiCM on July 02, 2018, 10:57 AM
There are very valid reasons for in-game hunger/thirst mechanics, especially on a heavily RP game.  In WOW, I used to pride myself on bringing the food to raid.  On CoffeeMUD, we have a broad variety of foods available that currently just sate the hunger/thirst mechanics to prevent you from dying. 

However, I agree with the concept that there should be some added incentives to seek food beyond the simple bodily-function that hunger/thirst systems emulate, and I would like to pose to the community the ECONOMIC impact of hunger/thirst systems.  Characters that can create their own foods have a distinct economic advantage over characters that have to buy food.  Classes that have abilities to stave off hunger or instantly create drinks drive players to want to have that sort of character as a support for their team/guild/group/clan (they are economical to the team).  I have found basic hunger/thirst mechanics to have provided many opportunities to diversify races, as well, such as races that are allergic to meat, or races that have specialized eating mechanics (Mindflayers, for example).  So, how hunger/thirst is handled can create some excellent opportunities for the game. 

Of course, I do recognize that some players do not like these mechanics, but I think of them as another puzzle within the MUD to overcome.